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bad play? - Wed Oct 12, 2011, 07:25 AM
(#1)
JokerAce68's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 315
Hi can you tell me if this is bad play please bearing in mind the person i was up against was raising and reraising all the time and was stealing potshttp://. im learning all the time and feel that i am probably too tight most of the time and i dont play enough hands but i felt he was bluffing after hes previous plays and on this occasion i was right,normally i would of folded pocket 5s. but then he started calling me donkey because he raised and i reraised and that his dog had a bigger iq than me not that im bothered by his comments but what am i meant to do fold everytime time some one re raises me which is what he was suggesting.like i said learning all the time only been on line since august promoted from open league to prem and doing ok at the moment. so please give your opinions good or bad.thankyou for looking.
 
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Wed Oct 12, 2011, 10:57 AM
(#2)
matt0278's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 65
I would say if you think he is overplaying his cards i 3bet preflop or fold here. Just flatting really doesnt help you and when you bet and he shoves with 2 overs on the board you are prolly beat 90% of the time. I like the end result and i dont think you played it wrong persay but just had to be a sik feeling calling off your stack with 55 on a q high board
 
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Wed Oct 12, 2011, 11:17 AM
(#3)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,833
(Super-Moderator)
BronzeStar
I like the flat with a low pair preflop. What I don't care for is the bet on the flop. Since you didn't hit any of the board and the opp checks, this is a great place to check and take a card, not only to try and hit a set, but for pot control..... especially if the opp was a station that was calling/raising with anything. If so, then they could have hit any part of the board and if so, you're in deep, deep trouble. I'd then fold to the shove, since the only thing you can beat is a total bluff.
 
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Wed Oct 12, 2011, 05:09 PM
(#4)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
Quote:
Originally Posted by JokerAce68 View Post
Hi can you tell me if this is bad play please bearing in mind the person i was up against was raising and reraising all the time and was stealing potshttp://. im learning all the time and feel that i am probably too tight most of the time and i dont play enough hands but i felt he was bluffing after hes previous plays and on this occasion i was right,normally i would of folded pocket 5s. but then he started calling me donkey because he raised and i reraised and that his dog had a bigger iq than me not that im bothered by his comments but what am i meant to do fold everytime time some one re raises me which is what he was suggesting.like i said learning all the time only been on line since august promoted from open league to prem and doing ok at the moment. so please give your opinions good or bad.thankyou for looking.

Hi Joker,interesting hand you posted here and I'll throw my two cents in below. First though,just want to give you a heads up,there is a Hand Analysis Section for posts like these and you would be better served posting something like this in that section. In fact could the next Mod that sees this please move it there? Thanks.

As to the hand itself...

1. Your initial reason/observation for getting involved in this hand to begin with...

Your first decision in any hand of poker is whether you are going to play the hand or not,then comes HOW you will play.

You say in your comments that you based your decision to play this hand on your "feeling" that this player was bluffing because he had been raising and re-raising constatnly. First thing you need to examine is how solid a read was that? Had the player been on the table for at least 4 orbits? Had he shown down with garbage and if so more than once?

If you were basing your read off a small sample he could simple have been on a heater. Bigger sample you could be up against a LAG player who senses passivity at this table and is exploiting that circumstance.. When I see you comment that he was stealing a lot I can only surmise that means that the table was folding to his aggression. Give a LAG type player a table like that and they are going to continue on that line until someone gives them a reason to stop. That doesn't make him/her a maniac,bluff-tard,donkey or any other label that we all throw around too often (myself included).

Are YOU solid enough in your progression at this point to tell the difference? That's a question that you have to ask yourself.

2. Your pre-flop call.

Basically I'm not OK with this play myself,though I can see the arguments in favor of it as well. But for me,in this instance,it's a fold. Here are my reasons.

1e percentage of your stack that your committing to this call.

Always know where you are stack-wise in relation to the blinds. This is at least as important in any decision making process as your place in the field,because while your standing is what ultimately determines your result ONLY the blinds and antes can FORCE you out of the tournament.

You were at 17BB's before this hand is dealt. Normally that's a little bit of a tight squeeze but not necessarily danger mode. Or more to the point "push or fold" range. Meaning a stack size in relation to the blinds where you should only be folding or shoving your stack. No standard raising and certainly NO calling.

But really 17BB's is not where you should be sizing your stack up at this point because the antes are out. This means you need to be going to the "M" factor to judge your stack. M is the blinds (1500 and 3000= 4500) plus the antes (300x8 spots= 2400). 4500 + 2400 = 6900. Your stack,51,923/6900 = 7.52. That's your M,meaning you have 7+ orbits at the CURRENT level before you blind off. So essentially calling the villains raise here is committing one entire orbit to the call.

At that standard you should only be getting involved with hands that you are willing to play for stacks. Period. Which leads us to reason #2.

2:Your position.

You flatted almost 13% of your stack and have 5 players left to act behind you. And every one of them are at a point where the only way that THEY should be continuing in this hand is too shove their stack in. Now one barely covers what you already called so he/she in inconsequential,but if any of the others go are you prepared to go forward in the hand with a pair of 5's? This is exactly the type of decision you need to be making at this point if the tournament before you commit so much as a single chip to any pot.

3: Your read on the villain and how their play may affect the rest of the table.

This is somewhat tied in with the position point. Basically,if you are reading this player as habitually stealing do you think that the rest of the table is seeing the same thing. And how are they reacting to that read? In other words when you flat with your 5's here,do you think that there is a reasonable chance that one of the players left to act,especially the 2 blinds,may decide to make their stand and get it in? And do you have them on a range that you would want to play your 5's for stacks against (i.e.,will they get it in with a hand like Ax,a big King,any double paint and the like...something that you may at least be flipping with...)?



Post-flop.


Look this is really simple. When you call a raise with a low pocket pair you're set mining. Period. If you card doesn't come (1 in 8 chance BTW...), AND three overcards fall you are in check and fold phase. Period. Look I understand that you think this character was playing a wide range to steal. OK that's fine. But a hand like A9 or A6 falls well within their range. So does any suited Q or any Q say Q9 and better. All of these have you crushed.

You came out smelling like a rose this time. But I promise you that playing a pocket pair against three overcards post flop,ESPECIALLY back at a re-raise against you,is a losing proposition most of the time. Quite frankly your play here is a spew.

Congrats on this hand but do not make a habit of this.

Last edited by Moxie Pip; Wed Oct 12, 2011 at 05:12 PM..
 
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Water off a duck's back - Wed Oct 12, 2011, 05:44 PM
(#5)
bigrik666's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 2
i never worry about the insults... just let the poker do the talking... i've had a good laugh at folk who try, when you are the big stack ,telling you you're playing all wrong... P.S. i'm from Scotland, there is NO insult i've not heard..lol
 
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Wed Oct 12, 2011, 05:48 PM
(#6)
TOO2COO's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,882
(Super-Moderator)
*moved*
 
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Thu Oct 13, 2011, 01:46 AM
(#7)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
My thoughts:

If this guy is "pressuring" a lot, raises/re-raise, etc, then is 55 an ideal hand to take against him?

Sure, if you flop a set you are going to probably win a BIG POT against someone like the overly aggressive lagtard, but what about if you do NOT flop a set?

how often is 55 going to be an over pair to the board?
how confident would you be about playing a "big" pot for a significant portion of your chips with less than top pair?

In this spot you start the hand with about 17BB.
You elect to call a raise of 2.2BB; that is about 13% of your stack.

Seeing as you are about 8.5 to 1 against flopping a set, are you HAPPY about folding off that much when you might be ahead OR behind a C-Bet?
you can be pretty sure, based on his past aggressive actions, this villain WILL be making a C-Bet or a raise of some sort against you, right? Best to plan for what to do about that EARLY...

99%+ of the time there will be AT LEAST 1 over to your 55 on the flop, are you happy about calling a bet or a raise with even 1 over card on the board?
Again, you are NOT getting "free cards" very often versus a highly aggressive player, so you need to be considering what you will do if you do hold a vulnerable hand BEFORE you pu chips in the pot.

So...

In this spot, your stack equates to a "re-steal" stack, and you should be thinking aobut entering pots AGGRESSIVELY, not calling raise to see if the flop fits you.
Since 55 will rarely be BETTER than a "race", your 17BB still has some "time" before you reach a point where you should be thinking about going all in or folding.

If this guy's range is SO LOOSE that he is betting and raising not only hands like the A3 he had here, but also hands like K2/Q3/J4, you are probably better served by taking AWAY his ability to "bring pressure" on you with post flop actions...go all in on a raise over his 2.2BB open raise.

If you feel 55 is not a strong enough hand to do that, or if you are un-willing to accept a RACE at this point because you think you still have enough time to wait for a BETTER spot (quite reasonable to think that), then you are probably better off FOLDING pre-flop.

The thing is, a set mine chance is only good if it is a CHEAP call that will take you to the flop.
13% of your stack being put into the pot is hardly CHEAP...I'd say stick with set mining chances for less than 7 to 10% of your stack, and try to make them only in position when there is less chance that someone behind you might wake up with a hand and raise too much for you to call.

If you cannot find a spot like that because your stack is under 20BB, and the open raiser is very VERY LOOSE...consider putting all the rest of your chips in on a stand...

Personally, I think I fold this here myself, but at least an all in move is better than a CALL.
 
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Thu Oct 13, 2011, 07:27 AM
(#8)
JokerAce68's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 315
I,d like to thankyou all for your replys and advice it is very helpful to me some of it confusing but i will read it all a few times to understand what you have said to me,i need to find the time to try and sit in on lessons or watch the videos as im mostly self taught by playing and observing others play at the tables or on tv. i would like to also say at the time i risked my stack with the 55s and won it felt good but after watching it again a few times i know it was dumb and something i would not have normally done i guess it was one of those moments i sometimes get where i lose self control for a few seconds if that makes any sense,well i would of normally folded with the 3 overcards so hopefully wont risk my stack again on something so stupid.thankyou all again and hope to see you on the tables.i,m in 16th place in the prem league at the moment on my first forray in the league i know theres along way to go but am happy so far.
 

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