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Omaha Hi/Lo

 
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Omaha Hi/Lo - Wed Oct 12, 2011, 10:34 PM
(#1)
EdinFreeMan's Avatar
Since: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,540
Here I have a good starting hand and reasonable flop at a very aggressive table - what should I be doing against opponents who have no intention to control the pot? Have I made a good call or not?

Sorry, this hand was deleted by its owner

Ed from Edinburgh - EdinFreeMan

Last edited by EdinFreeMan; Wed Oct 12, 2011 at 10:42 PM..
 
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Thu Oct 13, 2011, 02:30 AM
(#2)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
If you are facing BOTH opponents who are willing to stack off here, your overall equity is at WORST around 25%...

Realisticly though, that is if you are facing EXACTLY 1 hand which is QT78 AND the other one which has a set and a T8.

On average, after talking with some other people (I did so because I am FAR form an o/8 expert!), the consensus is that you will have somewhere between 30% and 40% equity on average versus likely hand ranges. this would include considering as possible 2 pairs and sets on, and the possibility of lesser flush draws, and just straight draws, etc.

since you are probably going to see both players getting in at this point, you really only need about 33 equity to break even. There is a pretty good chance you will have that equity.

this is a pretty close spot, but you probably do have enough reason to go with this as you did.

I hope you took it down!

Dave (TheLangolier), I know you have a ton more o/8 time than I have, can you chime in here please?

 
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Sat Oct 22, 2011, 01:32 AM
(#3)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
bump
 
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Sat Oct 22, 2011, 01:41 AM
(#4)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,499
(Head Trainer)
I think I would go ahead and get it in here. The first guy is usually on some kind of draw when he flat/back raise jams, and you have the nut flush draw. Other dude could have a set for sure, but also likely has J9 in his range, 2 pair+ draws like 9TJQ, and some combo draws which again you trump all diamonds. You have reasonable equity against their ranges plus a back door low draw for some emergency equity. After they both shove we need to call 2.74 more into a pot of 7.35 so we actually only need 27% equity to break even not 33%, we should have it I'd think.

Edit, in addition to the back door low draw, we have a back door nut club draw too, extra equity bonus.

Last edited by TheLangolier; Sat Oct 22, 2011 at 01:46 AM..
 
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Sat Oct 22, 2011, 01:49 AM
(#5)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,499
(Head Trainer)
Ran the equity vs. top set and a monster combo draw, our equity is almost 35% and that's a worst case scenario, so I think we're good calling the all ins here.


board: Jd 5d 9c
Hand Equity Scoops Wins Hi Ties Hi Wins Lo Ties Lo
Ad Ac Kc 2d 34.83% 202 202 0 144 0
Jc Js Kh Ks 42.94% 278 294 0 0 0
Qd Td Kd 8s 22.22% 126 170 0 0 0
 
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Sat Oct 22, 2011, 02:17 AM
(#6)
oriholic's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 751
BronzeStar
The nut flush draw is a super star at omaha. And here you have a backdoor draw to a low to go with it. If any two different 3, 4, 6, 7, 8 come you will take half the pot. That's 20/45*16/44= about a 16% chance of hitting that backdoor low for half the pot! You'll make your nut flush or top set often enough to make getting it in 3-way +EV, and that backdoor low draw basically adds about 8% equity, making this a solidly +EV spot. And the backdoor clubs helps a bit too. Getting it in 3-way with a hand like this rocks.
 
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Sat Oct 22, 2011, 03:41 AM
(#7)
ohjeohje's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 44
I would spam pot button like madman and hope they flip with me.

1. Nut flush draw
2. Overpair
3. Backdoor 2nd nut draw
4. Nut low draw

What kind of flop you are looking with AAK2ds hand? This must be dream flop...
 
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Sat Oct 22, 2011, 11:55 AM
(#8)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,809
(Super-Moderator)
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I like getting it in here too.

Most likely, there will not be a low (since the board needs to go runner/runner to even get a low hand), so it will be a pot going to the high hand. You're drawing to the nut flush, so you've got 9 outs for it..... and if you hit it, the only way you can lose is to a full house, which would need the board to pair. You also can hit an A for top set.

Most likely, the opps have a set or a straight/flush draw combo.... or they don't know the game.
 
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Sat Oct 22, 2011, 02:11 PM
(#9)
EdinFreeMan's Avatar
Since: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,540
It is very good to get that consensus from all you guys, - I feel much better about this now


Sorry, this hand was deleted by its owner

Good luck all

Ed from Edinburgh - EdinFreeMan
 
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Sat Oct 22, 2011, 05:02 PM
(#10)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,499
(Head Trainer)
What I was saying to JDean last night was, if we have to struggle to find a way we don't have the right price when looking at worst case scenarios, then in the real world we REALLY have the right price.

Against their actual hands we were an outright slight equity favorite getting a huge overlay:


board: Jd 5d 9c
Hand Equity Scoops Wins Hi Ties Hi Wins Lo Ties Lo
Ad Ac Kc 2d 50.83% 301 301 3 160 0
Qd Td Js 9h 32.73% 168 208 76 0 0
Ah Kh Th Qs 16.44% 78 78 79 0 0
 
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Sat Oct 22, 2011, 05:14 PM
(#11)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,499
(Head Trainer)
btw, word to the wise, drawing to a wrap when there are 2 other players who want to pot stacks in on a 2 flush board is very bad. The reason is you will often have way the worst of it equity wise, which a wrap does when up against both flush and full house draws, and if you're not up against both of those it's usually because one of the other 2 also has a wrap and a lot of your outs are only good for half the pot anyway. In this case the guy with the AKQT is smashed with only 16% equity.
 
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Sat Oct 22, 2011, 05:38 PM
(#12)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
This hand shows a prime reason WHY I tend to only play omaha variants versus true donks and morons, or when forced too at otherwise good mixed games tables.

I "get" the basics, but I also see a lot of "monsters under the bed" because I do not have the same feel for omaha as I have for Hold 'em , or Stud variants. The fact you were a small equity favorite to triple your money despite holding "just" a 1 way draw also shows how EASY it can be to find profitable tables with even a modicum of omaha knowledge (which is what I do if I elect to play this game).

When I was doing the Cowboy Corral Radio Broadcasts, we interviewed Randy Lew (Nananoko) live on air. He suggested that new players expand their overall poker games to include omaha especially, simply because the potential "skill advantage" for someone with even a little bit of knowledge about the game is so much GREATER than it is now in Hold 'em. To take best advantage of weak play by opponents, I always try to urge any beginning players I talk poker with to live by the mantra "tight is right".

The reason for this is simple: the more STRAIGHT FORWARD your decisions tend to be, the easier it is for beginners to make those decisions. Playing tightly vastly simplifies your decisions. According to Nananoko, despite the overall closer "edges" in omaha, it is far EASIER to find players willing to get in bad in that game than it is to find in similiar stakes Hold 'em games.

Because you can find people who will get in bad more often in omaha, I tended to look at the RISK side here a lot more than the GAIN side here. I still "got" the fact we probably should, but only because both players were willing to stack off based on our reads. This is a situation where I am still struggling to "accept" how weak many omaha players can be.

I admit it, I'm an omaha NIT!

When I FIRST looked the hand here, I said to myself

"self, that looks like a nicely strong double suited hand, with an un-protected nut low possibility".

But I also said...

"AA after the flop in omaha can be big time CHEESE, and if I do not flop a flush draw nor a low draw, it is gunna be a hand I don't think I can get myself married too"...

Still, I'd almost certainly RAISE pre with this holding, if only in hope of thinning the field somewhat so it plays better. Obviously, if looser opponents call I am going to have an advantage most times, but I will be oop.

On the flop, I REALLY do not "love" playing for stacks with just my 1 way nut flush draw. This is mainly a function of my self-imposed "nitti-ness" due to the aforementioned lack of feel for the types of hands "bad" opponents will raise/re-raise in omaha. If I had the nut flush draw with a nut low draw, or with a straight draw to the broadway even, I probably feel differently, but WAY too often I have found myself with these sorts of hands just not getting there.

Keep in mind, this is a FAILING in me!

As shown, the equity was there to go for it, especially if BOTH opponents went along. If I were at a hold 'em cash table with the AK nut flush draw, and I had 2 loose opponents with fewer chips than I, and BOTH of them were capable of stacking off on just 1 pair hands with great frequency, then I would not HESITATE to take my chances on my flush draw with 2 overs which are likely to be good if I hit 'em.

I really appreciate this hand being posted, as it has helped me in yet 1 more small way to see that omaha really can have BIG pay off potential...

...even if you did lose the hand this time.

Thanks.
 
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Sat Oct 22, 2011, 06:57 PM
(#13)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,809
(Super-Moderator)
BronzeStar
micro omaha games can be VERY profitable. Alot of the players aren't smart enough to see all the draws or made hands that can be out there.... let alone any idea of what kind of odds they may have.
 

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