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How to play this vs donks???

 
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How to play this vs donks??? - Thu Oct 13, 2011, 10:42 PM
(#1)
ALUCARD_1476's Avatar
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This is hand that I just played. How to play it vs this donks???

 
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Thu Oct 13, 2011, 11:03 PM
(#2)
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i'd have raised more than min preflop... but against a station, as soon as the A hits the board, you've gotta muck them.
 
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Thu Oct 13, 2011, 11:29 PM
(#3)
oriholic's Avatar
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Don't play a hand with only 25 BBs. Probably just shove preflop. You can get called by a lot worse and they'll probably be happy to oblige with you having such a small stack.

Quote:
i'd have raised more than min preflop
That's not a min-raise. A minraise would be to 8¢. 10¢ is double the open raise. This is important to note because a raise like that is not a misclick of the raise button. Though yeah, definitely raise more with such a strong hand against such perceived bad players.
 
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Thu Oct 13, 2011, 11:41 PM
(#4)
ALUCARD_1476's Avatar
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@ JWK24 yeah you are I should raise more, after seeing 3 guys calling I know I made mistake
 
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Thu Oct 13, 2011, 11:42 PM
(#5)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
First thing is you shouldn't be sitting there with $0.51 in front of you to begin with. If that's all you sat down with because you can't really afford to sit with more then you aren't sufficiently bankrolled to be playing 2NL anyway. If you sat down with 100 bb's and were leaking chips to this point then you need to have re-loaded long before this. Either that or get off the table. You're making it much harder on yourself playing with a stack disadvantage like this.


You can't play right with the stack size disadvantage that you were playing with here. And when you do get the nuts you're leaving money on the table because you're only getting a pittance of the other players stacks.

As to the hand itself,with the stack that you DID have here you need to be jamming this pot pre-flop. The original raiser,with his stack differential to yours,is going to call pretty much every time. You don't want a 4 way pot like you had here though. So shove to hopefully isolate (again the minimal stack you're playing with can make that problematic...). The small stack you have in relation to the rest of the table is limiting the way you can play and you'll be forced to take less than optimal lines.

With a "correct" stack size here I would have 4x or 5x bet overtop of the original raiser. Doubt the other 2 players would follow along for that price (we don't know what dima had here but we know it wasn't a J and I guarantee you he/she is shoving any decent Ace so I say they had A-rag at best in relation to this flop and the ensuing betting). If dimok wants to call off a 4 or 5x bet raise with J6s then God bless his pointy little head. And I'm searching for him every time I go to load up a session for quite some time to follow.

Main point of emphasis here is to play with a proper stack size. You're in the hole before the cards are even dealt playing a stack like that.
 
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Thu Oct 13, 2011, 11:50 PM
(#6)
ALUCARD_1476's Avatar
Since: Aug 2011
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@ Moxie Pip just fast answer on thing related to my short stack. I like to play with short stack (40bb) and that's part of my strategy and the way I play, so far I had good results but last 2 days I had so many coolers. Man I run colder than its in Siberia
 
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Thu Oct 13, 2011, 11:57 PM
(#7)
joy7108's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,299
I'm curious, how can a lower chip stack give you any advantage? I tend to buy in for either 100 BB or the max allowed, depending on the stack sizes on the table. I find that if I have less than that I can't make the right size raises.

Just curoius, so if you want to keep your strategy secret no prob.

 
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Fri Oct 14, 2011, 12:08 AM
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Short-stacking is a valid but hateful strategy at higher limits, but 40 BBs is terrible for it. 20 BBs is optimum. In fact, you're supposed to leave the table once you get it up to 30 BBs or so, as your stack size becomes awkward for the raises you need to make.

At this level though, you're just playing with an inherent disadvantage. You lose out on implied odds, and generally have to commit yourself to getting all in by the turn.
 
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Fri Oct 14, 2011, 12:46 AM
(#9)
ALUCARD_1476's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oriholic View Post
Short-stacking is a valid but hateful strategy at higher limits, but 40 BBs is terrible for it. 20 BBs is optimum. In fact, you're supposed to leave the table once you get it up to 30 BBs or so, as your stack size becomes awkward for the raises you need to make.

At this level though, you're just playing with an inherent disadvantage. You lose out on implied odds, and generally have to commit yourself to getting all in by the turn.
Yeah you are right 20bb is optimum but because min buy in at these tables are 40bb, I must go with that amount
I was profitable at FullTilt at these levels with short stack strategy
 
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Fri Oct 14, 2011, 12:57 AM
(#10)
oriholic's Avatar
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But you really can't shortstack profitably with 40 BBs. Rather than buy in for the minimum because it's the closest you can get to 20 BBs, you should really just buy in for 100 BBs and use all your tools If 30 BBs is too big to short-stack than 40 BBs is even worse as it's way too much to shove preflop, which is the whole point of short-stacking.
 
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Fri Oct 14, 2011, 03:36 PM
(#11)
JDean's Avatar
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Posts: 3,145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ALUCARD_1476 View Post
@ Moxie Pip just fast answer on thing related to my short stack. I like to play with short stack (40bb) and that's part of my strategy and the way I play, so far I had good results but last 2 days I had so many coolers. Man I run colder than its in Siberia
Note to Moxie: This is a perfectly valid type strategy, and people do employ it.

Note to Alucard: PART of the strategy is extreme DISCIPLINE, both in your pre-flop actions and your post flop actions.

The realities of a short stack cash game strat is that you are trying to get the BIGGER STACKS to mis-interpret your short stack as meaning that you either cannot afford a full BI, or that you are "scared" to put a full BI on the table. You want to punish their mis-perceptions by waiting for "monster hands", and then "banging" them with big chip moves EARLY in the hand.

Another facet of the strategy is that you are seeking to SIMPLIFY your betting decisions, because you will not (usually) have enough in your stack to play a "standard line" all the way to the river. This is perfectly acceptable, as your choice to wait for pre-flop monsters tends to FAVOR earlier committment anyway.

As stated elsewhere, ideally, you want a MINIMUM STACK (usually the min is around 20BB), so you can get your stack in far earlier and far easier, and have a strong chance of getting called. When you get up around 40 to 50BB, this becomes MUCH harder for you to do, so you are best served by LEAVING the table so you can "rat hole" any immediate profits, or RE-LOADING to the max and playing a more "standard" game.

The DRAWBACK of playing a short stack strategy lies in the fact your choice to start short also limits the MAXIMUM you can win with your "monster hands". Since you sit with less, and since you can only win amounts based on the EFFECTIVE STACK in any given pot, the shorter your stack is (and thus the shorter the effective stack is), the LESS win potential you have on an individual hand.

SO...

(note, this is personal preference, not an absolute)

I would be LOATHE to give up any potential extra value at micro stakes tables. The opponents there tend to be "bad" enough that I do not feel I need to resort to "artificial" means of creating "mistakes".

Sitting with a short stack at a micro table strikes me as "Fancy Play Syndrome", quite like someone who habitually attempts to "slow play" top/top: Sure, there may be times that is more profitable in the long run, but since they (your opponents) are probably calling or not based totally on their cards, it is almost always more profitable to LEAD OUT. Sitting with a short stack at a micro stakes table MAY change some opponents' willingness to make mistakes against you, but it will not change those tendencies often enough to be worth giving up the GREATER individual hand win potential of sitting with a larger stack.

But that is a personal choice as I said...

As for the balance of the hand here as played:

On the action ahead of you, had you held a 20BB, and not a 40BB stack, you probably could have shipped pre-flop. You probably would have gotten at least 1 caller. You probably would have been well ahead.

But BECAUSE a short stack strat is all about discipline, and playing "tight" to create advantages when opponents CALL you incorrectly, to keep with that strategy you really cannot put another penny into this pot when an Ace shows (and you have no improvement) to hold with your strategy.

Good fold.

Last edited by JDean; Fri Oct 14, 2011 at 03:40 PM..
 
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Fri Oct 14, 2011, 09:09 PM
(#12)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDean View Post
Note to Moxie: This is a perfectly valid type strategy, and people do employ it.

Note to Alucard: PART of the strategy is extreme DISCIPLINE, both in your pre-flop actions and your post flop actions.

The realities of a short stack cash game strat is that you are trying to get the BIGGER STACKS to mis-interpret your short stack as meaning that you either cannot afford a full BI, or that you are "scared" to put a full BI on the table. You want to punish their mis-perceptions by waiting for "monster hands", and then "banging" them with big chip moves EARLY in the hand.

Another facet of the strategy is that you are seeking to SIMPLIFY your betting decisions, because you will not (usually) have enough in your stack to play a "standard line" all the way to the river. This is perfectly acceptable, as your choice to wait for pre-flop monsters tends to FAVOR earlier committment anyway.

As stated elsewhere, ideally, you want a MINIMUM STACK (usually the min is around 20BB), so you can get your stack in far earlier and far easier, and have a strong chance of getting called. When you get up around 40 to 50BB, this becomes MUCH harder for you to do, so you are best served by LEAVING the table so you can "rat hole" any immediate profits, or RE-LOADING to the max and playing a more "standard" game.

The DRAWBACK of playing a short stack strategy lies in the fact your choice to start short also limits the MAXIMUM you can win with your "monster hands". Since you sit with less, and since you can only win amounts based on the EFFECTIVE STACK in any given pot, the shorter your stack is (and thus the shorter the effective stack is), the LESS win potential you have on an individual hand.

SO...

(note, this is personal preference, not an absolute)

I would be LOATHE to give up any potential extra value at micro stakes tables. The opponents there tend to be "bad" enough that I do not feel I need to resort to "artificial" means of creating "mistakes".

Sitting with a short stack at a micro table strikes me as "Fancy Play Syndrome", quite like someone who habitually attempts to "slow play" top/top: Sure, there may be times that is more profitable in the long run, but since they (your opponents) are probably calling or not based totally on their cards, it is almost always more profitable to LEAD OUT. Sitting with a short stack at a micro stakes table MAY change some opponents' willingness to make mistakes against you, but it will not change those tendencies often enough to be worth giving up the GREATER individual hand win potential of sitting with a larger stack.

But that is a personal choice as I said...

As for the balance of the hand here as played:

On the action ahead of you, had you held a 20BB, and not a 40BB stack, you probably could have shipped pre-flop. You probably would have gotten at least 1 caller. You probably would have been well ahead.

But BECAUSE a short stack strat is all about discipline, and playing "tight" to create advantages when opponents CALL you incorrectly, to keep with that strategy you really cannot put another penny into this pot when an Ace shows (and you have no improvement) to hold with your strategy.

Good fold.

Aware of the strategy JD,seen enough "hit and runners" when I played rings here. But like Ori and yourself pointed out 40BB is stacked wrong for it so that's not what I thought he was up to. And to be quite frank as bad as most peeps are at 2NL I just personally don't buy it as a valid strategy at that level( to each his own I guess). To me you're leaving money on the table not playing fully stacked at 2NL because there are plenty of players that will pay you off all the way. Why take 20BB's when they'll willingly give you 100BB?

But that's me I guess.
 
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Fri Oct 14, 2011, 09:20 PM
(#13)
!!!111Dan's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 3,290
Max stack every time. Pros do the same. Watch Felix's video, he describes why you want to have it as well. In fact, he keeps the auto reload on so that when he slips below max, it fills it up immediately. He points out that is indeed a leak to not have a full, or close to full, stack. Opponents see that and they will make life a bit rough on ya' if they can. It just looks like your weak or scared if you don't have a big stack at a cash table.
I'm not saying everyone needs to, or should play the exact same as him or anyone. Just pointing out what one player does and I've heard many others say the same thing.

My goal is always to double up a max stack and move tables.......well........was.
Right here big brother...right here.
 
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Fri Oct 14, 2011, 10:11 PM
(#14)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moxie Pip View Post
Aware of the strategy JD,seen enough "hit and runners" when I played rings here. But like Ori and yourself pointed out 40BB is stacked wrong for it so that's not what I thought he was up to. And to be quite frank as bad as most peeps are at 2NL I just personally don't buy it as a valid strategy at that level( to each his own I guess). To me you're leaving money on the table not playing fully stacked at 2NL because there are plenty of players that will pay you off all the way. Why take 20BB's when they'll willingly give you 100BB?

But that's me I guess.
I cannot dis-agree Moxie Pip.

About the ONLY micro cash table I could think of where it may become a valid strat would be one with the equivalent tight-ness/individual discipline as the early days of the Cowboy Corral MTT/SNG events.

Those are going to be few and far between.

See This part of my Post:

(note, this is personal preference, not an absolute)

I would be LOATHE to give up any potential extra value at micro stakes tables. The opponents there tend to be "bad" enough that I do not feel I need to resort to "artificial" means of creating "mistakes".

Sitting with a short stack at a micro table strikes me as "Fancy Play Syndrome", quite like someone who habitually attempts to "slow play" top/top: Sure, there may be times that is more profitable in the long run, but since they (your opponents) are probably calling or not based totally on their cards, it is almost always more profitable to LEAD OUT. Sitting with a short stack at a micro stakes table MAY change some opponents' willingness to make mistakes against you, but it will not change those tendencies often enough to be worth giving up the GREATER individual hand win potential of sitting with a larger stack.

But that is a personal choice as I said...

 
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Sat Oct 15, 2011, 12:43 AM
(#15)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDean View Post
I cannot dis-agree Moxie Pip.

About the ONLY micro cash table I could think of where it may become a valid strat would be one with the equivalent tight-ness/individual discipline as the early days of the Cowboy Corral MTT/SNG events.

Those are going to be few and far between.

See This part of my Post:

(note, this is personal preference, not an absolute)

I would be LOATHE to give up any potential extra value at micro stakes tables. The opponents there tend to be "bad" enough that I do not feel I need to resort to "artificial" means of creating "mistakes".

Sitting with a short stack at a micro table strikes me as "Fancy Play Syndrome", quite like someone who habitually attempts to "slow play" top/top: Sure, there may be times that is more profitable in the long run, but since they (your opponents) are probably calling or not based totally on their cards, it is almost always more profitable to LEAD OUT. Sitting with a short stack at a micro stakes table MAY change some opponents' willingness to make mistakes against you, but it will not change those tendencies often enough to be worth giving up the GREATER individual hand win potential of sitting with a larger stack.

But that is a personal choice as I said...


LOL,chill bud I got that you ain't buying it as a valid strategy in your mind either. Was just saying that I know it's a strategy that is used.I personally think it's a flawed,at best,strategy. At least at 2NL and 5NL. Above that if it were to have any value is beyond me to say as that's the highest I played personally.

Dano hit the nail on the head bringing up Felix to I think. I would much rather try to emulate what someone with his results did than try a gimmicky strategy that,in my mind,the regs could take advantage of all day long. And we all know that even at 2NL there are regs.
 

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