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Anything I Should Have Done Different.

 
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Anything I Should Have Done Different. - Sun Oct 16, 2011, 09:33 AM
(#1)
royalraise85's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 26,024
(Community Coordinator)
On the Button with 35 Big's with a strong holding and got busted!

The HJ raises Preflop and I call, maybe I should have re-raised him but was aware that he had double my stack.

Again I didn't see any reason to re-raise Postflop although I had a feeling i was ahead and resisted the urge to Jam.

I did however Jam the Turn because at that stage I was pot committed....... and Villian hits the river!

Was it just one of those things or should I have done anything different? lol

Sorry, this hand was deleted by its owner

Last edited by royalraise85; Sun Oct 16, 2011 at 09:34 AM.. Reason: Insert replayer
 
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Sun Oct 16, 2011, 10:02 AM
(#2)
TrumpinJoe's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 4,557
Shove pre!
 
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Sun Oct 16, 2011, 11:54 AM
(#3)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,817
(Super-Moderator)
BronzeStar
I agree TJ. You absolutely need to re-raise preflop and with your stack, if you're going to re-raise, then it needs to be a shove. QQ is a premium hand, but it doesn't play very good in a 4-way pot.

The opp's probably going to call your shove and you got really unlucky... but the other opps probably had an A or K and what you don't want is someone hitting one of those (which is alot easier to do than to hit a 2 outer with a lower pair).
 
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shove or no shove... - Sun Oct 16, 2011, 12:06 PM
(#4)
pirateglenn's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 15
tbh on that board he was going to never fold...and although i totally feel you should have shoved pre - he would have called as he had you covered...personally speaking...i liked the way you decided to try and get value but as a short stack...i think you need to eliminate risk first and even picking up blinds or small raises by inducing folds can be advisable in such positions as larger stacks are going to call you off with many lesser hands and play them to showdown.
 
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Sun Oct 16, 2011, 08:49 PM
(#5)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
A 3bet pre flop SHOULD be an all-in if you decide to make it; you;d simply be too deeply invested in the pot to fold to any threat cards if you make it a standard 500 to 700 to go.

BUT...

With a premium holding like QQ, I can understand a willingness to risk the approximately 41% chance of at least 1 flopped over card (without you holding a set), in order to see if you can score some extra value in the pot.

As for factors which might tilt you one way or the other, those might be:

1) The Villain's raise range

If he is too wide, then you are likely to fold him out a ton more often with a jam.

2) The Villain's "regard" for his stack (his call range)

If his call range is somewhat wide after he has raised, especially if he does not regard a double up to you as very "damaging", I'd be more prone to jam pre and isolate on his range. That would mean if he'd willingly call me on hands like 88/AJ/AQ, then I'd be a lot more willing to get 'em in early versus just the initial raiser.

3) Call range of the BB

If this villain is one to call too often simply BECAUSE he is in the blind, I really would not want a flat by me to be followed by a BB flat. The flat by me and the BB may give enough "reason" to the EP limper to come along too, and I am starting to not like my hand's potential in a 4way pot merely as much in a heads up or 3 way pot. This would tip me towards the jam.

As long as you recognize that NOT 3betting pre-flop means you are trying to keep yourself farther from a commitment point, and that this gives you GREATER ability to fold in certain threat situations on the flop, I can see it as perfectly fine to flat call here and invest only about 11% into the pot, versus a 28% to 40% investment for a "standard" size 3Bet, or an All In jam likely to fold out worse hands, and get called by strong races or better hands.

So...

When the flop comes, it does go 4 way.
That means the pot is built up to 825 chips.

With 1565 left in your stack, when you hold the over pair you should not be CALLING the 300 chip C-Bet by the initial raiser.
Why?

Well, that 300 C-Bet raises the pot to 1125, and that amount represents a rather large chip up for your 1765 start stack.
The larger the pot is relative to your start sack, the less willing you should be to allow further cards to come off the deck "cheaply".
A lot of the "reason" behind flatting pre is to get the pot built up a bit, and with that accomplished, why get greedy?

Had your stack been 3000+, the flat to extract extra value is just fine.
The draw out risk is probably small enough to not really mind letting the pot get a bit bigger if the Lead bettor will continue to fire on less than your over pair.
But on your current stack size, letting him "wriggle off the hook" for any extra value he may be willing to CALL here and NOW is not a good idea.
It is aslo not a good idea for you to run the risk of letting a "cheap" K or A coming to BEAT you; if that is going to happen, you want to be sure one of these guys PAID for the privilidge.

ALSO...

It is commonly held that 30 to 35% represents a "committment" point, whereat you are likely to make a far larger MISTAKE by folding away that amount in an MTT than you would be in calling with any hope there is a bluff. Rather than allowing yourself to passively cross that threshold, you should be thinking about either "going for it" when there is a GREATER chance you are ahead, or folding NOW before you do get that deep.

Calling that 300 flop bet has you pretty deeply invested in this pot anyway, at about 28% deep.
Do you really want to FOLD 28% of your stack if an A or K comes?

Isn't there a pretty solid chance your QQ on a T high flop is the best hand?

All this together means you probably should be thinking the pot has grown large enough that if you DO fold out worse hands, at least you are doing so with a solid chip up.
If you get called, and he is ahead...well, that happens sometimes.
If you get call, and he is behind, and still he sucks out...well, that happens too.

The thing is, you need to be thinking "all in or fold" no later than this flop, after the pot as grown to the size it did.
If you wait, you run the risk of it being too late to get max value, or you risk that your stack will be too small in relation to the pot size to have any leverage in folding out decent draws.

....

As I said though, in this hand, your opponent had an over pair too.
With more chips, he probably is not going to fold.
That river J is going to come, and that means you are going to lose.

But by your actions you risk TOO many potential hands sticking around to draw out on you, and that increased your possible chances of being sucked out on go up.
 
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Sun Oct 16, 2011, 09:21 PM
(#6)
siberianex's Avatar
Since: May 2010
Posts: 38
When he makes it 200 preflop, you need to re-raise to about 500 to induce a 4 bet by him or if he just calls, you play it in position and on that flop you should get all your money in.

As played, you should have shoved the flop.
 
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Sun Oct 16, 2011, 10:09 PM
(#7)
oriholic's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 751
BronzeStar
Exactly what siberianex said. Calling in position is an option too if the blinds are aggressive and squeeze-happy, but most of the time, I'd choose the 3-bet. I think 35 BBs is a little too much to shove pre unless you have reads or more information. What kind of tournament is this? In a freeroll I definitely shove pre because you're getting called by so much garbage, but if it's the kind of tournament where people fold to shoves preflop you lose out on too much value/risk way too much, plus you completely discard your positional advantage.

If you were in the blinds, then shoving makes more sense.

Definitely shove flop as he can call with all his Tx hands as well as JJ
 
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Sun Oct 16, 2011, 10:58 PM
(#8)
royalraise85's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 26,024
(Community Coordinator)
Thank you all very much for your lengthy answers. Plenty of insight here and I'll take it all onboard.

Much appreciated!

 

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