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How Large is the Minimum Raise?

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How Large is the Minimum Raise? - Thu Oct 20, 2011, 01:47 AM
(#1)
alexvg01's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 1
Hi everybody

I've got some questions regarding betting.

If there are 10/20 blinds in No Limit Hold 'em and Player A raises to 50, what is the minimum amount the next player can reraise? Is it up to 100 total, which is double the previous bet or 80 total because the previous raise was 30 more (20-->50)?

///

For this other example, lets assume the blinds are 50/100 in a no limit game.

UTG1 who is first to act after the big blinds (pre flop) raises to 300, UTG2 and 3 fold to player 4, who then places a chip in worth 500

UTG1 Argued that you can't reraise someone less than double his original bet, in other words UTG4 could only raise a minimum now of 300, so therefore the minimum chips he could place in the pot in the form of a raise is 600.

Is this correct? , I assumed that a re-raise was only limited to the minimum of the big blind, so that if someone bet 300, someone could make it 350, or, does the minimum raise then need to be double the previous bet? And does this change at all during betting rounds (pre flop - flop).

///

In a heads up match NLTH, blinds 50-100... Player A is SB Player B is BB... it's up to A... then he decides raise 150... is this correct...?... shouldn't be at least a minimum of 200...?



Thank you.


Alex
 
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Thu Oct 20, 2011, 07:34 AM
(#2)
TrumpinJoe's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 4,557
See comments below.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alexvg01 View Post
Hi everybody

I've got some questions regarding betting.

If there are 10/20 blinds in No Limit Hold 'em and Player A raises to 50, what is the minimum amount the next player can reraise? Is it up to 100 total, which is double the previous bet or 80 total because the previous raise was 30 more (20-->50)? 80

///

For this other example, lets assume the blinds are 50/100 in a no limit game.

UTG1 who is first to act after the big blinds (pre flop) raises to 300, UTG2 and 3 fold to player 4, who then places a chip in worth 500

UTG1 Argued that you can't reraise someone less than double his original bet, in other words UTG4 could only raise a minimum now of 300, so therefore the minimum chips he could place in the pot in the form of a raise is 600.

Is this correct? , I assumed that a re-raise was only limited to the minimum of the big blind, so that if someone bet 300, someone could make it 350, or, does the minimum raise then need to be double the previous bet? And does this change at all during betting rounds (pre flop - flop).

The amount of the minimum re-raise in the previous bet plus (the previous bet minus the original bet.) In the situation above a 500 bet is legit.

///

In a heads up match NLTH, blinds 50-100... Player A is SB Player B is BB... it's up to A... then he decides raise 150... is this correct...?... shouldn't be at least a minimum of 200...?
A cannot raise to 150 it muse be to 200. However he can raise by 150 to 250.



Thank you.


Alex
 
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Thu Oct 20, 2011, 07:35 AM
(#3)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexvg01 View Post
Hi everybody

I've got some questions regarding betting.

If there are 10/20 blinds in No Limit Hold 'em and Player A raises to 50, what is the minimum amount the next player can reraise? Is it up to 100 total, which is double the previous bet or 80 total because the previous raise was 30 more (20-->50)?

///

For this other example, lets assume the blinds are 50/100 in a no limit game.

UTG1 who is first to act after the big blinds (pre flop) raises to 300, UTG2 and 3 fold to player 4, who then places a chip in worth 500

UTG1 Argued that you can't reraise someone less than double his original bet, in other words UTG4 could only raise a minimum now of 300, so therefore the minimum chips he could place in the pot in the form of a raise is 600.

Is this correct? , I assumed that a re-raise was only limited to the minimum of the big blind, so that if someone bet 300, someone could make it 350, or, does the minimum raise then need to be double the previous bet? And does this change at all during betting rounds (pre flop - flop).

///

In a heads up match NLTH, blinds 50-100... Player A is SB Player B is BB... it's up to A... then he decides raise 150... is this correct...?... shouldn't be at least a minimum of 200...?



Thank you.


Alex
The correct MINIMUM raise amount in the situation you have posted above would be a re-raise to a total of 500 to go.

In hold 'em, all raises must be made in an amount at least double the prior BET or RAISE amount.

What the first raiser (the guy who made it 300 to go) forgot is that the BB is a LIVE BET in the amount of 100. This means when he made it 300 to go, he was essentially CALLING the 100 bet and RAISING an additional 200. He was not opening the betting for 300.

A minimum raise by the first person to act after it was made 300 to go would be to double the 200 RAISE, not double the entire 300 amount, see?

That means a "correct" minimum raise in your example, after the BB was raised to a total of 300, is to make it 500 to go, not 600 to go.

Now on the flop, there is no forced bet made by the BB before action proceeds.

The first BET at the pot can be anything from 100 chips (the minimum bet) to all the chips a player has.

Any raise AFTER the open bet must be in an amount at least double the 1st bet to be a valid raise.

EXAMPLE:

Blinds = 50/100
The flop comes.

UTG player has the option to CHECK, BET 100 chips to 100% his stack, or FOLD.
(ok, folding when you can check is pretty bad in almost all circumstances, but it is an option)
He cannot RAISE because there is no open bet for him to raise...see?

Let's say he elects to BET 300.

The next player to act can now elect to CALL the 300, FOLD, or RAISE the open bet.
If he elects to raise, the minimum amount he can raise is 300 more, making it a total of 600 to go.

See?

There is a "special" circumstance that can occur, and that is when a player is all in for LESS than a full raise.

Example:

blinds = 50/100
The flop has come.

UTG opens the betting, and makes it 300 to go.

UTG +1 has only 350 chips, so he cannot make a FULL RAISE.

He is allowed to go all in for an under-raise less than a full minimum raise, but whether or not anyone else can raise again is usually up to the particular rules enforced on the NL game.

Normally the rule is that any all in raise for less than 50% the amount of a minimum raise does NOT "re-open" the betting for further raises.

This means in the example I show above, since the minimum raise is 300 more (600 to go), and since the all-in player only makes it 50 more to go (350 total), all other players who might want to continue playing can only CALL the all-in.

If the short stack had gone all in for 450 or more, then his under-raise would be for 50% or more of a minimum raise, and anyone else could the raise AGAIN, by re-raising at least 450 more (the 300 for the full min raise, plus the 150 under-raise amount by the all in). See?
 
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Thu Oct 20, 2011, 09:20 AM
(#4)
!!!111Dan's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 3,290
Hi Alex and welcome to the forum.

You've received your answers so I'll just encourage you to keep asking any questions you may have. There are lots of great, helpful people around.
Be sure to look into live training, and the videos they archive. The tabs up top have a lot of info that new members need to look through. The league tab explains all the set ups here.

Hope to see you soon.


JDean, I'm guessing you freakin' aced essay class.
 
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Thu Oct 20, 2011, 04:27 PM
(#5)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,510
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexvg01 View Post
UTG1 who is first to act after the big blinds (pre flop) raises to 300, UTG2 and 3 fold to player 4, who then places a chip in worth 500

UTG1 Argued that you can't reraise someone less than double his original bet, in other words UTG4 could only raise a minimum now of 300, so therefore the minimum chips he could place in the pot in the form of a raise is 600

Hi Alex,

You already have the correct answer now (raise was 200, a minimum reraise is 200 more or a total of 500 to go), but one other point about the bolded part above. In live poker when you place a single overchip into the pot it is automatically a call unless the player announces "raise" when they place it. So if player 4 tossed the single 500 chip in and announced raise, then he was making a legitimate raise. If however he just tossed the chip in and didn't say anything, it's automatically a call.

Dave
 
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Thu Oct 20, 2011, 07:16 PM
(#6)
Darkman61's Avatar
Since: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,225
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLangolier View Post
So if player 4 tossed the single 500 chip in and announced raise, then he was making a legitimate raise. If however he just tossed the chip in and didn't say anything, it's automatically a call.

Dave
And boy oh boy have I seen some people get upset about that. And for some reason they all tend to be wearing shades and headphones.
 
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Thu Oct 20, 2011, 08:17 PM
(#7)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,819
(Super-Moderator)
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkman61 View Post
And boy oh boy have I seen some people get upset about that. And for some reason they all tend to be wearing shades and headphones.
I'll 2nd that. I've seen some pretty heated arguments in Vegas between a player and floor over it.
 
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Thu Oct 20, 2011, 08:49 PM
(#8)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLangolier View Post
Hi Alex,

You already have the correct answer now (raise was 200, a minimum reraise is 200 more or a total of 500 to go), but one other point about the bolded part above. In live poker when you place a single overchip into the pot it is automatically a call unless the player announces "raise" when they place it. So if player 4 tossed the single 500 chip in and announced raise, then he was making a legitimate raise. If however he just tossed the chip in and didn't say anything, it's automatically a call.

Dave
The reason for this rule (if you are wondering) is that it can be considered an "angle play" to toss 1 chip in of a proper raise size.

The person betting can guage the reaction of the raiser to that single chip hitting the pot, and if he sees the initial raiser looks "happy" about the raise, he can ask for change back. It the dealer begins to give change back, and the initial raiser didnt look happy about the raise, the person betting the 1 chip can claim, "oh that is a raise! not a call"

See?
 
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Thu Oct 20, 2011, 11:57 PM
(#9)
hemetdennis's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,019
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDean View Post
The reason for this rule (if you are wondering) is that it can be considered an "angle play" to toss 1 chip in of a proper raise size.

The person betting can guage the reaction of the raiser to that single chip hitting the pot, and if he sees the initial raiser looks "happy" about the raise, he can ask for change back. It the dealer begins to give change back, and the initial raiser didnt look happy about the raise, the person betting the 1 chip can claim, "oh that is a raise! not a call"

See?

SO IF YOUR HAPPY LOOK SAD, AND IF YOUR SAD LOOK HAPPY

 
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Sat Oct 22, 2011, 02:32 AM
(#10)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
See Rule 39 of the 2011 TDA Rules for MTT events live:

39: Oversized Chip Betting
Anytime when facing a bet or blind, placing a single oversized chip in the pot is a call if a
raise isn’t first verbally declared. To raise with an oversized chip, raise must be declared
before the chip hits the table surface. If raise is declared (but no amount), the raise is the
maximum allowable for that chip. When not facing a bet, placing an oversized chip in the pot
without declaration is a bet of the maximum for the chip.

http://www.pokertda.com/wp-content/u...ngform_PDF.pdf

^^ is complete rules from the TDA for 2011
 

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