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2NL strategy?

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2NL strategy? - Thu Oct 20, 2011, 02:03 PM
(#1)
Deleted user
I know we all come across the crazy Russian player that is aggro all the time but has any one seen this!

They limp preflop almost always
They min bet always (position doesnt matter as long as they are first in)
Turn they bet 75% of the time.

Its a strange tactic but at this level I do notice players fold cheap on the flop.

So what I do is tax them preflop and dont give them much respect on the flop and will check raise if I have a piece.The odd part here is they call and minbet the turn..lol
So I repeat the same steps and they usually fold out.

How are you guys playing against these minbet players?

Last edited by Deleted user; Thu Oct 20, 2011 at 05:32 PM.. Reason: Fixing Title
 
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Thu Oct 20, 2011, 02:26 PM
(#2)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,476
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deleted user View Post
I know we all come across the crazy Russian player that is aggro all the time but has any one seen this!

They limp preflop almost always
They min bet always (position doesnt matter as long as they are first in)
Turn they bet 75% of the time.

Its a strange tactic but at this level I do notice players fold cheap on the flop.

So what I do is tax them preflop and dont give them much respect on the flop and will check raise if I have a piece.The odd part here is they call and minbet the turn..lol
So I repeat the same steps and they usually fold out.

How are you guys playing against these minbet players?
Unless there is no money in the pot at all (like a HU limped pot) I generally treat min-bets like a check. So when the dude bets .02c into a pot of .18c or whatever, it's a check.

In my micro-stakes cash game live trainings we talk about the really small bet usually meaning weakness and attacking it more liberally, and in most cases that is going to be true unless/until you see different. In this case I'd say this qualifies as "different" if they are ALWAYS doing it, i.e. they can also have some strong hands in their range as well, as they'd play those the same way I assume? That being said, their hand strength is still going to be relative to how wide their preflop range is. What you're stating as observed doesn't speak to how loose or tight they are entering, only what they do when they do enter... so if they have a high vpip then they are going to have an awful lot of weak hands and air. If they are playing a tight range they'll have relatively stronger holdings post flop and you'll run into less air. So with that in mind I'd treat their post flop min bets like a check and proceed accordingly... if a free card is good for you just call, if you have a value hand raise them, and if your hand is hopeless and the villain is going to be sticky to the pot, just give up.
 
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Thu Oct 20, 2011, 02:27 PM
(#3)
topthecat's Avatar
Since: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,962
Funnily enough I did mention to Dave during the profiling for exploitation training about a similar player type that I have noticed on the tables of late, not just Russians, but players from everywhere.

I wanted to call them strong calling stations or strong LPAs but Dave said you cannot have a strong LPA.

The type I notice, always limps pre, either calls (whatever the bet) or min bets subsequent streets and then overbets the river. It is surprising how often they hit the river and end up winning pots. Another facet of their play is a huge raise pre when they have a premier hand and off course they often get called with air.

Another variant is the calling station who bets (although how you can call someone who bets passive (LPA) is maybe not the right term) when they hit a piece, any piece of the flop. They are easier to deal with though with medium to strong holdings.

I deal with them ok if there are only one or two of them at a table but when there are six of them and they are all limping and min betting it is like "come dancing" on crack.. Try to isolate with a decent hand and they all call

Minbet calling station is actually a good term. Maybe Dave can shed some light on the issue, it is like small ball play in some ways. It could be that some other training site is advocating this style because I saw them on the 45 mans as well.


LOL was going to pm you Dave but you are already on the ball


Cheers,

TC

Last edited by topthecat; Thu Oct 20, 2011 at 02:32 PM..
 
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Thu Oct 20, 2011, 02:38 PM
(#4)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,476
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by topthecat View Post
Funnily enough I did mention to Dave during the profiling for exploitation training about a similar player type that I have noticed on the tables of late, not just Russians, but players from everywhere.

I wanted to call them strong calling stations or strong LPAs but Dave said you cannot have a strong LPA.

The type I notice, always limps pre, either calls (whatever the bet) or min bets subsequent streets and then overbets the river. It is surprising how often they hit the river and end up winning pots. Another facet of their play is a huge raise pre when they have a premier hand and off course they often get called with air.

Another variant is the calling station who bets (although how you can call someone who bets passive (LPA) is maybe not the right term) when they hit a piece, any piece of the flop. They are easier to deal with though with medium to strong holdings.

I deal with them ok if there are only one or two of them at a table but when there are six of them and they are all limping and min betting it is like "come dancing" on crack.. Try to isolate with a decent hand and they all call

Minbet calling station is actually a good term. Maybe Dave can shed some light on the issue.

Cheers,

TC
Calling stations call, they don't bet... they don't min-bet every hand and they dont' bomb the river unless they have a monster. There is no such thing as a strong calling station because strong players don't play like that except in very specific circumstances to exploit a villain (like up against an over-aggressive big bluffer, they might adjust by acting "weak" and calling down a lot lighter than normal). But anyone who has calling station like stats over a reasonable sample is not a strong player and certainly not anywhere close to a winning one.

I'd say this player type cookies is observing is a new sort of breed, I posted how I would adjust to them, it should be easy enough to beat them. I would think people get tripped up by over-aggressing vs. the "weak" bets. Like they min-bet the flop and hero raises, then as cookies said they call, and min bet the turn. Hero has nothing but attacks them again and raises the turn. They call and min-bet the river. Hero has air, has built a big pot, and now raises again trying to take it down, and the villain calls again with a pair and scoops 3 streets of solid value from hero by inducing in a way that is fairly "new" to the hero. Anyway easy enough to adjust, raise them for value and only bluff if you know that particular villain actually has a fold button somewhere in that sequence. When they don't have a fold button, treat the min bets like checks and be prepared to call more liberally (for instance, for 1 bb into a pot of 10+ bb's you will have the right price to call with some really thin draws like gut shots, bottom pair looking to improve, a back door straight+ back door flush draw on the flop, 2 big overs, etc.)
 
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Thu Oct 20, 2011, 02:58 PM
(#5)
topthecat's Avatar
Since: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,962
Thanks Dave for the excellent feedback.

After losing two or three big pots to these type of guys I did adjust and they are easily outplayed. As I said earlier it only gets complex when there are 5or 6 of them at the same table.

Do you fancy taking a shot at coining a name for this new breed of player?

BTW I have been going through all your videos to get my game back in the groove and I must say they have been an enormous help. Thanks very much Dave.

The weak TAG has left the building

Cheers,

TC
 
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Thu Oct 20, 2011, 03:54 PM
(#6)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,476
(Head Trainer)
Thanks TC, glad to hear my sessions/videos are helping.

As for coining a name to this lot, idk... how about min-bots
 
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Thu Oct 20, 2011, 04:23 PM
(#7)
hemetdennis's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,019
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLangolier View Post
Thanks TC, glad to hear my sessions/videos are helping.

As for coining a name to this lot, idk... how about min-bots
I WOULD NEVER PROGRAM MY BOTS TO PLAY THAT WAY

 
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Thu Oct 20, 2011, 05:49 PM
(#8)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,788
(Super-Moderator)
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLangolier View Post
As for coining a name to this lot, idk... how about min-bots
sounds good to me. I've seen that type of player, but not that often, as I was playing more tournies than cash games... but can definitely tell they're a different animal that needs to be handled differently than a station/LAG/TAG/etc.
 
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Fri Oct 21, 2011, 12:31 AM
(#9)
dale442's Avatar
Since: May 2011
Posts: 553
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLangolier View Post
Thanks TC, glad to hear my sessions/videos are helping.

As for coining a name to this lot, idk... how about min-bots

LOL, that'll work!!


Dale
 

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