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Too weak or ???

 
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Too weak or ??? - Fri Oct 21, 2011, 11:52 AM
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DiveAllIn's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 377
Villian limping into every pot playing weak fit/fold so far:


 
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Fri Oct 21, 2011, 12:01 PM
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JWK24's Avatar
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if they were limping into everything, then they'll have alot wider range. The only hands ahead of you are a 9 or a K with a higher kicker. A king with a higher kicker should normally raise you preflop.

Unless you can put the opp on a 9, then I'd call their raise on the turn and re-evaluate on the river. They could raise you on the turn with a 9, but more likely was probably a missed flush or a K with a weaker kicker. If I was in their situation and had a 9, then I'd just call your bet and raise you on the river (to get the most value out of you).
 
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Fri Oct 21, 2011, 01:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JWK24 View Post
if they were limping into everything, then they'll have alot wider range. The only hands ahead of you are a 9 or a K with a higher kicker. A king with a higher kicker should normally raise you preflop.

Unless you can put the opp on a 9, then I'd call their raise on the turn and re-evaluate on the river. They could raise you on the turn with a 9, but more likely was probably a missed flush or a K with a weaker kicker. If I was in their situation and had a 9, then I'd just call your bet and raise you on the river (to get the most value out of you).

How does a fit or fold player see the turn with Kx? He has KJ beat here most of the time. Maybe AK or KQ sees the turn or a , but I don't see a fit or fold player floating. He could have had TT, JJ, QQ after the flop, but the turn raise pretty much removes those all from his range. The only way he sees the turn with a K is if it has a flush draw too. I don't like my odds against his range and I fold.
 
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Fri Oct 21, 2011, 02:55 PM
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You're beat virtually all the time here. I think it's a good fold.
 
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Fri Oct 21, 2011, 03:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oriholic View Post
How does a fit or fold player see the turn with Kx? He has KJ beat here most of the time. Maybe AK or KQ sees the turn or a , but I don't see a fit or fold player floating. He could have had TT, JJ, QQ after the flop, but the turn raise pretty much removes those all from his range. The only way he sees the turn with a K is if it has a flush draw too. I don't like my odds against his range and I fold.
good point Ori. I was looking at it from just the limp into every hand, not the fit/fold all the time.
 
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Fri Oct 21, 2011, 03:08 PM
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Re: the other comments... how wide the villains range is pre is a bit suspect (he's not limping in this hand, he's cold calling our raise), but that's not the key point in ranging him imo. He's seeing flops and playing fit or fold, then we make a good solid c-bet and he doesn't fold, which indicates a fit. On this board that is 9x, the underfull, a pocket pair, or a spade draw. On the turn he raises us when a K comes. He's not taking this line with pocket pairs or spade draws (unless it's specifically a big Kxs, which he may or may not raise). That leaves 9x and underfulls, and his line is consistent with that level of strength ("slow play" the flop, raise the turn). He may be initially getting involved fairly wide, but a loose preflop fit or fold type player is only taking this line with a narrow range post flop, none of which we beat unless another K comes on the river.
 
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Fri Oct 21, 2011, 04:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DiveAllIn View Post
Villian limping into every pot playing weak fit/fold so far:


You give very minimal info about the villain in the hand.
If this was the sum of your available info on him, your best option is to make as standard a play as possible.

Based upon the info provided, you really have done pretty "standard" actions throughout this hand.

- You raised from the C.O. with a medium strong hand for a 6 max table. Villain called.
- You C-Bet a missed flop for roughly 2/3rds pot (64% pot to be exact). Villain called.
- You spike top pair/med kicker on the turn (on a paired flop board), and launch a 2/3rds pot bet, presumably for value. Villain RAISES you a bit under 1.5 times your raise.
- You Fold...

I see nothing wrong with that fold here at all to be 100% honest, as the Villain's turn RAISE puts you pretty strongly into a "Fold or Shove" situation. Since there are a lot of possible "threats" to your KJ, and not a lot of WORSE hands which are likely to call a shove, the fold is preferable.

If I felt this villain were the type to bluff or semi-bluff too often, then when I spike the turn K I am LESS likely to lead out. That K represents marginal value for me, value which puts me ahead of a likely bluffer's range, but it is not improvement which would make me "strong" against a lot of what COULD be present in the Villain's hand on this flop. I would really want to control the pot size to make a bluff shove LESS possible for the villain.

Of course we do not have that sort of "bluff read" based on the info you've provided...

In case you lack the info needed to vary from the standard type play because you do not yet possess the ability to gather it, you might want to check out these videos:

For help in ranging your opponent, see these videos on PSO:
http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/art...ice-by-Example
http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/art...Example-Part-2
http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/art...quity-Maximize

And For help in observing your opponents and their tendencies so you can adjust YOUR actions, see these videos:
http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/art...r-exploitation
http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/art...3-Hand-Reading
http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/art...ing-Essentials
http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/art...14-Fold-Equity
http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/art...-Ratios-Part-1
http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/art...-Ratios-Part-2
http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/art...nds-Large-Pots



Instead of "good luck", I wish you...

Good Decisions!

Last edited by JDean; Fri Oct 21, 2011 at 04:25 PM..
 
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Sun Oct 23, 2011, 07:24 AM
(#8)
DiveAllIn's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 377
ty all for feedback ty for links JDean
 

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