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fold kk played it wrong

 
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fold kk played it wrong - Sat Oct 22, 2011, 07:45 PM
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Sat Oct 22, 2011, 07:57 PM
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you gotta raise with it preflop (to at least 450). Then I'd have made a raise on the flop, like you did. Then, you need to make a bet on the turn.. if nothing else, to see where you're at in the hand.

If you bet the turn, then the opp won't raise or push, normally, without the flush... or maybe the straight (A4).
 
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Sat Oct 22, 2011, 08:01 PM
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I had just done this on another table so i thought id try it again. Been trying different things. a few weeks ago i would have just shoved preflop.
 
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Sat Oct 22, 2011, 08:05 PM
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another that you really need to raise preflop. QQ plays alot better against 1 hand than multiple (more of a chance someone has a K or A to hit against you). I like the bet on the flop and as long as you don't put them on a 6, you have to call it.
 
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Sun Oct 23, 2011, 04:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m.bisland View Post


I had just done this on another table so i thought id try it again. Been trying different things. a few weeks ago i would have just shoved preflop.
"Trying things out" are good, but let me ask you: What did you LEARN from your exercise?

Have you thought hard about your experiments?

In case you are looking for some additional thoughts, I'll will try to add some:

First, let's compare the 2 hands you've posted...

The QQ hand could be said to have went like this:

- you limped UTG with a very strong hand.
- by this deceptive move you induce a very short stack to believe you had a weaker hand than you truly had, and you got him to raise all in.
- you then continued your deception against the first caller of your limp by flat calling the raise, enticing him to continue as well.
- you then "sprung your trap" on a pretty non-threatening board, by leading into the "dry pot" for 800.
- because you used deception, the remaining live stacked villain over-estimated the strength of his 77 over pair to the board, and went all in.
- you called, and probably got MORE value from this hand than you were likely to get had you raised to open.

The KK hand could be said to have went like this:

- Again you limped UTG with a very strong hand.
- This time, you saw a somewhat more draw heavy board come.
- When the SB villain you "induced" into sticking around by your limp led out for 1/3rd the pot, you raise.
- This time however, your raise was likely not "believed" to be a strong hand BECAUSE of your deceptive acts, or the villain held a strong draw he was un-willing to give up. Either way, it was your choice to use deception here which led to the flop coming cheaply, and that flop has probably connected with at least 1 of these villains in some way.

#note: up to this point, you have not necessarily done anything "wrong" in the hand. If the villain is simply on a flush draw, you are charging him a sufficient price to deny him odds to hit the flush on the turn (when you'd get to bet again if a non-threat card had come), so you are making a good decision, and have not necessarily cost yourself value. BUT...

- The turn now comes a very BAD card for you, the 5c. This is bad because it will have completed a flush, and also completes a couple of potential straight draws.
- When the villain checks to you, you are not really able to bet because of the numerous potential "threats" to your KK, and you check largely in hopes of a 4th club coming to give you the 2nd nut flush.
- The river does not give you improvement on your 1 pair hand, and the Villain raises all in. Due to the large number of threats to your KK, you really cannot run the risk of calling on this now VERY coordinated board with just a 1 pair hand. You fold.

The key thing for you to note in this hand is that by not raising pre-flop, you've "allowed" a greatly expanded range of hands to take the flop against you. Hands like 34/89, or like 2 garbage clubs are now easily within the range of a SB who has to call "only" 75 chips into a 375 pot (5 to 1 odds). Also possible are the numerous "small card" hands which may have made 2 pairs. By not raising pre flop, the more "standard" play, you failed to price out a large number of possible hands which could have connected with this flop, turn, or river. Overall, as played you did pretty well not to lose MORE than you did with your KK, and you made a lot of the right moves for your situation. Unfortunately, because you elected the deceptive line, you likely gave up the chance of setting a price that would get a flush draw to FOLD (not that you necessarily WANT him to fold), and even when the villain checked to you, the wider range you let stick around cheaply made it impossible for you to risk a 2nd bet to "test" the Villain's willingness to keep playing; that in turn likely led him to feel free in JAMMING the river.

So things you might want to think aobut are:

Deceptive plays, which are not also the best straight forward plays, COST you short term value.

(An example of a deceptive play also being the best straight forward play is when you are holding such a STRONG hand that there is little chance for you to be drawn out on. In this case if there is ANY chance the villain might not have connected with the flop, a deceptive check in hopes the villain "catches up" to a 2nd best hand, or perceives you check as "weakness" and using that as an opportunity to bluff bet, adds value for you. This is value you might otherwise have not gotten by an immediate bet which forces the villain to fold.)

This cost may be expressed in a loss of additional value you might have otherwise gotten into the pot by making the more standard play, or it might come from a loss of the entire pot because you did not "price out" draws which then run you down. Either way, both of these things entail a loss of value for you, at least in the short term.

Because of the loss of immediate value potential, whenever you elect a deceptive play over a more straight forward one you should have a REASON for doing so, and that reason should usually entail re-couping the immediate loss of value at some point later on.

- You can possibly re-coup the immediate value loss by limping in to deceive an otherwise aggressive opponent into believing you hold a weaker hand than you truly do, and thus encouraging him to bet or call more than he otherwise might have at later stages of the same hand. That is pretty much what happened in your QQ hand.

- You can possibly re-coup the immediate loss of value by using deceptive plays (at least some of the time) versus "aware" opponents to keep them guessing as to the true strength of your hand when you choose a pariticular action. It can be important to "balance" your bet sizing decisons in certain situations (like when you are holding sets, or over pairs, or draws), by avoiding the same bet size decisons with the same hand, thus throwing off "patterns". This "balancing" can lead to later calls you may not have gotten, or folds you may not have gotten, simply because your opponents are un-sure of your hand.

- You can possibly re-coup immediate loss of value from electing a deceptive play by setting an "image" at showdown for a certain pattern of decisions. You can then use that same pattern to BLUFF, and take down a pot you might have otherwise not won, solely on the strength of your prior image.

Things you should note about the use of deception...

- "Long Range" deception (Balancing your range, and setting an image) is often wasted effort versus less aware or less skilled opponents. These opponents are either un-aware of your patterns, or are perfectly willing to pay off value in the short term through their particular leaks.

- Plays like those you've tried in these 2 hands above are best reserved for use versus extremely AGGRESSIVE opponents. If an EP limp by you is likely to be raised, that re-opens the chance for you to RE-RAISE, thus getting in more value. Even if you do not re-raise, the act of the aggressive opponent raising does a lot of the work to "thin the herd" and make your strong hand play better. Since large pp tend to win more often versus 1 or 2 opponents, the presence of an aggro-villain willing to raise FOR you, keeps your hand strength disguised while still aaccomplishing the goal" of making your large hand play better.

- Deceptive acts against opponents who are NOT aggressive tend to leave pots smaller. This not only may result in you winning less if you win, but it also tends to allow LARGER amounts to remain in opponents' stacks which might be used to bluff at you. These smaller pots also make the bet sizes opponents will be willing to CALL with lesser type hands smaller than if you had gotten value in earlier.

So...

There is a LOT to think about when you are trying out the use of deception.
Some times it works out, sometimes it doesn't, but the more you are aware of the possibly effects of electing a deceptive play, the more you will be prepared when things do not fall exactly as you planned them when you choose to deceive.

I hope some of these thoughts help you out.

"Good Decisions"
 

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