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flopping trip aces on a limped flop

 
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flopping trip aces on a limped flop - Mon Oct 24, 2011, 11:56 PM
(#1)
Ibag123's Avatar
Since: Sep 2011
Posts: 37
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hand number 4 of the tornament i floped trip aces a guy in UTG just limmped !
should i fold the flop ?(very hard to do), fold the turn? (still very hard to fold), fold the river maybe ?

Sorry, this hand was deleted by its owner


sorry for the multpyle topics :P
 
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Tue Oct 25, 2011, 12:25 AM
(#2)
joy7108's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,287
This is the classic reason NOT to play raggy aces, when you do hit them you have kicker problems. Barring those rare flops when you hit two pair, you're almost always losing.
 
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Tue Oct 25, 2011, 12:47 AM
(#3)
Ibag123's Avatar
Since: Sep 2011
Posts: 37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joy7108 View Post
This is the classic reason NOT to play raggy aces, when you do hit them you have kicker problems. Barring those rare flops when you hit two pair, you're almost always losing.
so your saying fold flop ? ( i cant fold preflop i was BB)
 
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Tue Oct 25, 2011, 01:51 AM
(#4)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
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A2 stack off...a bit "ick", even though you did have trip aces.

You have some pointers here to indicate you are NOT ahead.

Consider...

If you ever play stud, the game dynamics there would confer a totally different "strength" value to you holding trip aces. In stud, you do not "share" cards with an opponent, so kickers are less of a concern, and the threat of "domination" is lessened.

In this spot, you see a player limp UTG.
That gives you a "free flop" and you SEEM to hit "gin" with your A2.
Unfortunately, because of the use of community cards in hold 'em, ANY A held by any opponent (except A2) has you on a strong but 2nd best hand.

The key thing to ask yourself is: did you have any indications he MIGHT have a better A?
If so, when?

Well...

Pre-Flop:
He limped.
No REAL indication there.
Sure, some people will limp any A that they can get away with, and ANY A is ahead of you, but the simple fact he limped does not immediately indicate he has the A.

Flop:
On the flop, when you CHECK he bets out a pot over bet.

Are there any draws he might be semi-bluffing?
KQ/KJ/QJ, but all those are gut shots; is someone likely to over bet the pot on a gut shot draw?

Are there any LESSER hands than yours which might bet?
Sure. KK/QQ/JJ, all over pairs to TT, MIGHT bet strongly behind your check in the false hope that the 2 aces on board means no one has an Ace in thier hand.

These hands would probably expect to get raised or called only by a better hand if they had bet out that strongly with the "big" pp pairs you are ahead of, right?

99/88/77 etc, the middle pp, MIGHT bet here to see if they can represent the A, but a pot over-bet might be more than it takes to find out if you can get people to fold, right?

Hands like KT/Q/JT/T9 all might limp pre too, and all might bet this flop when they paired the off card.

So you have the START of "worry" about whether your hand is good or not, simply because there was a pot over-bet, but you really cannot be certain.

A CALL of the pot over bet here sticks less than 10% of your stack in, so you can still FOLD later if things begin to clarify a bit, right?

The thing I'd ask you is this: Did you ever consider LEADING this flop, say for around half pot?

As you were the BB, you holding a rag Ace is entirely within your range (because the flop is "free" for you), and a half pot bet may well get CALLED by a lot of the lesser hands that might BET, but you also get the additional benefit of seeing a RAISE by better Aces at least some of the time.

A CALL of a donk lead bet by you may not be enough info to elicit an immediate check/fold without turn improvement for you, but it DOES lead you strongly to believe a lot of the hands which might bet out would have a very hard time calling a bet made by the BB who could be on ANY 2 cards.

A RAISE of a donk lead bet by you may will be a pretty clear sign that you are beaten though, as anyone limp/raising an AA flop probably would be holding an A; any A beats you. Afterall, most of the hands that might bet lighter than your trip aces (if you check) simply cannot risk a lot of chips by raising you because they too lack info on YOU, right?

TURN:

You had plenty of reason to "slow down" on the turn after the flop action, especially when you do not improve, so your check is really the "right" thing to do. Remember, ANY Ace is ahead of you here...

You now see another pot over bet.
This time, a call of that bet will mean you are putting your total pot investment at 440 + 120 = 560.
That is well over 1/3rd of your start stack.

If you CALL this bet, can you FOLD to any "threat" card which might come?
If you cannot fold to any threat card after getting that deeply invested, did you ever consider SHOVING FOR VALUE over that 2nd pot over bet?

If you FOLD instead of call, can you re-coup your loss later with the 68BB you'd have left?

the long and the short of your decision on the turn is pretty simple...


1) Every action by the villain in the hand to this point indicates he PROBABLY has a pretty strong hand; are there any hands that a "typical" player might consider to be "strong" that you are ahead of with A2o?

2) Your only real choice here after the 2nd pot over-bet puts your opponent past a committment point as well is between a Shove or a Fold; you simply CANNOT call without being willing to put all the rest of your chips in, and if you are willing to put 'em in anyway, why not NOW?

3) You have only 3 "outs" at most if you are "wrong" about committing on this turn with a shove, the 3 x 2's to boat up, and if your opponent is on AT or A4, you have 0 outs.

4) If you LOSE, you are out, out, OUT...

Now based on all this, can you tell me how you probably should have played this?

Last edited by JDean; Tue Oct 25, 2011 at 01:55 AM..
 
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Tue Oct 25, 2011, 01:52 AM
(#5)
oriholic's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 751
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Trip aces with a weak kicker is a bitch of a hand. There are a couple things to consider. On a AAx board, ranges are generally pretty polarized. Basically you're against bluffs or Ax or TT sooooo often. Especially when he over bets the pot. At the same time, you have one of the aces, which makes it less likely that the other guy has one. But he's betting into a 3-way limped pot, so he probably has something. But he could totally do this with any KQ, KJ, QJ in clubs, spades, or diamonds for the gutshot to the nuts with backdoor flush draw. If you know this guy is never bluffing with those sorts of hands then he almost always has something strong. Folding trips is annoying, but with the worst possible trips hand, a UTG limper who overbets the flop probably has you beat. Particularly if he's your typical passive player who's not prone to bluffing the paired board. There's just not much he can hit that's worse than your trip aces no kicker. This is different than having K2 on AKK, where he totally could have an ace.
 
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Tue Oct 25, 2011, 04:12 AM
(#6)
Ibag123's Avatar
Since: Sep 2011
Posts: 37
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDean View Post
A2 stack off...a bit "ick", even though you did have trip aces.

You have some pointers here to indicate you are NOT ahead.

Consider...

If you ever play stud, the game dynamics there would confer a totally different "strength" value to you holding trip aces. In stud, you do not "share" cards with an opponent, so kickers are less of a concern, and the threat of "domination" is lessened.

In this spot, you see a player limp UTG.
That gives you a "free flop" and you SEEM to hit "gin" with your A2.
Unfortunately, because of the use of community cards in hold 'em, ANY A held by any opponent (except A2) has you on a strong but 2nd best hand.

The key thing to ask yourself is: did you have any indications he MIGHT have a better A?
If so, when?

Well...

Pre-Flop:
He limped.
No REAL indication there.
Sure, some people will limp any A that they can get away with, and ANY A is ahead of you, but the simple fact he limped does not immediately indicate he has the A.

Flop:
On the flop, when you CHECK he bets out a pot over bet.

Are there any draws he might be semi-bluffing?
KQ/KJ/QJ, but all those are gut shots; is someone likely to over bet the pot on a gut shot draw?

Are there any LESSER hands than yours which might bet?
Sure. KK/QQ/JJ, all over pairs to TT, MIGHT bet strongly behind your check in the false hope that the 2 aces on board means no one has an Ace in thier hand.

These hands would probably expect to get raised or called only by a better hand if they had bet out that strongly with the "big" pp pairs you are ahead of, right?

99/88/77 etc, the middle pp, MIGHT bet here to see if they can represent the A, but a pot over-bet might be more than it takes to find out if you can get people to fold, right?

Hands like KT/Q/JT/T9 all might limp pre too, and all might bet this flop when they paired the off card.

So you have the START of "worry" about whether your hand is good or not, simply because there was a pot over-bet, but you really cannot be certain.

A CALL of the pot over bet here sticks less than 10% of your stack in, so you can still FOLD later if things begin to clarify a bit, right?

The thing I'd ask you is this: Did you ever consider LEADING this flop, say for around half pot?

As you were the BB, you holding a rag Ace is entirely within your range (because the flop is "free" for you), and a half pot bet may well get CALLED by a lot of the lesser hands that might BET, but you also get the additional benefit of seeing a RAISE by better Aces at least some of the time.

A CALL of a donk lead bet by you may not be enough info to elicit an immediate check/fold without turn improvement for you, but it DOES lead you strongly to believe a lot of the hands which might bet out would have a very hard time calling a bet made by the BB who could be on ANY 2 cards.

A RAISE of a donk lead bet by you may will be a pretty clear sign that you are beaten though, as anyone limp/raising an AA flop probably would be holding an A; any A beats you. Afterall, most of the hands that might bet lighter than your trip aces (if you check) simply cannot risk a lot of chips by raising you because they too lack info on YOU, right?

TURN:

You had plenty of reason to "slow down" on the turn after the flop action, especially when you do not improve, so your check is really the "right" thing to do. Remember, ANY Ace is ahead of you here...

You now see another pot over bet.
This time, a call of that bet will mean you are putting your total pot investment at 440 + 120 = 560.
That is well over 1/3rd of your start stack.

If you CALL this bet, can you FOLD to any "threat" card which might come?
If you cannot fold to any threat card after getting that deeply invested, did you ever consider SHOVING FOR VALUE over that 2nd pot over bet?

If you FOLD instead of call, can you re-coup your loss later with the 68BB you'd have left?

the long and the short of your decision on the turn is pretty simple...


1) Every action by the villain in the hand to this point indicates he PROBABLY has a pretty strong hand; are there any hands that a "typical" player might consider to be "strong" that you are ahead of with A2o?

2) Your only real choice here after the 2nd pot over-bet puts your opponent past a committment point as well is between a Shove or a Fold; you simply CANNOT call without being willing to put all the rest of your chips in, and if you are willing to put 'em in anyway, why not NOW?

3) You have only 3 "outs" at most if you are "wrong" about committing on this turn with a shove, the 3 x 2's to boat up, and if your opponent is on AT or A4, you have 0 outs.

4) If you LOSE, you are out, out, OUT...

Now based on all this, can you tell me how you probably should have played this?
after reading this great review of the hand i might say :], i would probebly fold the turn.
thanks for your review !
 
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i got say something - Tue Oct 25, 2011, 04:17 AM
(#7)
Ibag123's Avatar
Since: Sep 2011
Posts: 37
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my game got improve so much do to your guys hand reviews tips, i minimise my mistake in each game i play - i played 3 season so far made 20$ profit - thank you very much guys i apriciate !
 
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Tue Oct 25, 2011, 04:42 AM
(#8)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibag123 View Post
my game got improve so much do to your guys hand reviews tips, i minimise my mistake in each game i play - i played 3 season so far made 20$ profit - thank you very much guys i apriciate !
If you've found the HA forum here a big help, do not forget to check out the live training sessions!

http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/edu...ining/overview
 
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Tue Oct 25, 2011, 04:52 AM
(#9)
Ibag123's Avatar
Since: Sep 2011
Posts: 37
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDean View Post
If you've found the HA forum here a big help, do not forget to check out the live training sessions!

http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/edu...ining/overview
ok cool
 
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Tue Oct 25, 2011, 12:40 PM
(#10)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,512
(Head Trainer)
You're not beating anything in his value betting range to bomb 3 streets... unless the villain is a known massive bluff-tard, this is a fold on the turn.
 
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Tue Oct 25, 2011, 01:10 PM
(#11)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,512
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDean View Post
TURN:

You had plenty of reason to "slow down" on the turn after the flop action, especially when you do not improve, so your check is really the "right" thing to do. Remember, ANY Ace is ahead of you here...

You now see another pot over bet.
This time, a call of that bet will mean you are putting your total pot investment at 440 + 120 = 560.
That is well over 1/3rd of your start stack.

If you CALL this bet, can you FOLD to any "threat" card which might come?
If you cannot fold to any threat card after getting that deeply invested, did you ever consider SHOVING FOR VALUE over that 2nd pot over bet?
A couple thoughts... there is no scare card on the river, and check/raise shoving the turn would be terrible, a classic case of a raise that won't get called by worse and won't fold out better hands.
 
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Tue Oct 25, 2011, 02:26 PM
(#12)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Yeah, I know...

My intent in the post was to "lead" to that point exactly.

You CANNOT feel confident about 3Bet jamming on a check/raise shove, so since you are committing yourself ANY WAY with a call, the fold is the only "real" option.
 

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