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limit tactic ?

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limit tactic ? - Wed Oct 26, 2011, 02:36 AM
(#1)
BaMXaHa33's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 2
hey i wonder what is the best tactic for limited poker cuz i tryed to play tight and agresive
and it kinda fill wrong
tnx and sorry for the bad spelling
 
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Wed Oct 26, 2011, 03:36 AM
(#2)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
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Your question is pretty wide open, so it is hard to answer.

Can you be more specific?

Perhaps if you have a desire to just get some info about General Fixed Limit Poker thoughts, you can check out the Lessons located here: http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/cou...Hold-em-Course

The Lessons in PSO can be quite good as a starting point to familiarize yourself with a new game.

Last edited by JDean; Wed Oct 26, 2011 at 03:41 AM..
 
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Wed Oct 26, 2011, 07:24 AM
(#3)
XxTiberxX's Avatar
Since: Sep 2011
Posts: 374
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaMXaHa33 View Post
hey i wonder what is the best tactic for limited poker cuz i tryed to play tight and agresive
and it kinda fill wrong
tnx and sorry for the bad spelling
I never play limit hold'em, simply because it requires very little strategy about betting.

You get a good hand and you bet, if someone else has a good hand he calls or raises. do this untill the end of the hand and see who has the best hand.

Its too hard to put pressure on your ooponent, simply because the bets are too small to do this.
 
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Wed Oct 26, 2011, 02:21 PM
(#4)
!!!111Dan's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 3,290
Welcome to the forum BaMXaHa33.
There's other threads that you can find pertaining to limit hold 'em too. Use the search feature in the gray tab just above. Then use key words in the advanced search.
The course and quiz that JD pointed out are great starting points. Then you can see what you can find in the library.
There's lots of great, helpful people around, so if you can get just a little more specific in your questions, you will get great responses.
Check through all tabs up top, including live training, videos, blogs and the others to see what all is available to each member.
 
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tnx - Thu Oct 27, 2011, 09:50 AM
(#5)
BaMXaHa33's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 2
tnx to all ye im kinda bad in english so its hard to expres my self
but i ment just in general wey what difrens in tactic betwin limit and no limt
cuz i start to play no limit whit tactics few days ago and my gamed amproved totaly
and i dont like to play limit holdem but some times i play so i just wonder for a general tip dont want to read about it much i berly play it

ps. i try to play limit whit tight and agresive but i feeling thet its wrong

Last edited by BaMXaHa33; Thu Oct 27, 2011 at 09:52 AM..
 
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Thu Oct 27, 2011, 10:36 AM
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Cairn Destop's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,477
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Tight and aggressive sounds good. The idea in a limit game is to know when to stop chasing that elusive card. As somebody has already pointed out, most of the limit players you meet at the lower cash limits cannot be chased off any hand. If there is a (as in but one card) chance of winning, they will remain in the hand to the showdown. We call such players ATM's.

Learn by reading, and watching, the video lessons on limit games. We do have them on this site, and they are free. You might think you are playing proper, but actually reinforcing bad habits that will become difficult discarding later. It takes work learning how to play properly.

Once you have mastered the fundamentals, it becomes time to apply the lessons. Don't be too surprised when players in the lower limits continue chasing. When it cost 50¢ to reach the river in a 1¢/2¢ limit game, even with each round going to max, they have no incentive to fold. The idea is knowing when to remain in a hand and when to fold.
 
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Thu Oct 27, 2011, 12:35 PM
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JWK24's Avatar
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In a limit game, you need to play looser than you would in a no-limit game or tourney. I agree with JD's post and recommend you read the info in the course on limit hold'em that he posted.

The reasoning for being looser at limit is that you can only lose a given amount in a hand (unlike no-limit, where you can lose all your chips at any given time). Due to this, you can play many more hands that would be marginal-at-best in no-limit, with the correct odds to play them.
 
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Thu Oct 27, 2011, 01:59 PM
(#8)
TrumpinJoe's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 4,557
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWK24 View Post
In a limit game, you need to play looser than you would in a no-limit game or tourney. I agree with JD's post and recommend you read the info in the course on limit hold'em that he posted.

The reasoning for being looser at limit is that you can only lose a given amount in a hand (unlike no-limit, where you can lose all your chips at any given time). Due to this, you can play many more hands that would be marginal-at-best in no-limit, with the correct odds to play them.
Absolutely 100% correct. In No Limit you can wait for a big edge to get involved, but in fixed limit you must exploit small edges to be a winning player.
 
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Thu Oct 27, 2011, 04:35 PM
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JDean's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JWK24 View Post
In a limit game, you need to play looser than you would in a no-limit game or tourney. I agree with JD's post and recommend you read the info in the course on limit hold'em that he posted.

The reasoning for being looser at limit is that you can only lose a given amount in a hand (unlike no-limit, where you can lose all your chips at any given time). Due to this, you can play many more hands that would be marginal-at-best in no-limit, with the correct odds to play them.
Too clarify a bit...

Yes, you must play MORE hands in limit than in no limit, because as stated you cannot wait for the "big edge" and have a chance to realize a big win on a single hand. In limit, if you establish TOO TIGHT an image, opponents can elect to check/call to lower the amount you might win against them.

But in reality, the looser start standards in limit does NOT mean you are playing WAY LOOSE like you might be able to do in NO limit either.

In no limit, you can essentially enter a pot with 2 random cards with the intention of bluffing hard at someone who folds too tightly. Your hand value may not matter at all, because of the pressure you can bring to bear with your stack. This is sometimes impossible in limit poker.

in limit poker you must be much more aware of things like pot odds, and position. You must also be aware of the effect multi way pots tend to have on pot odds, and the likely strength required of winning hands.

So in position, DRAWING HANDS, like suited connectors, will find a lot more situations where they are playable in limit, than in NL. Small pp hands tend to be LESS playable (slightly) oop in limit, because you do not have the potential to extract as much value from your sets as in NL.

So there are differences. My personal "top 5 Limit tips" would be:

1) In most cases, do NOT call 2 bets "cold"

Cold calling into a raise pot in limit is often a losing proposition. if the pot comes to you with 2 (or more) bets for you to call, you really need to be looking to RAISE or FOLD. The lack of ability to bet all your stack to extract maximum value dries up a lot of the benefit of taking "speculative" hands into a raised pot.

2) an OVER-CALL is not the same as a Call.

Over calling is when you call a bet or a raise after someone else has called that bet or raise. Often times CALLING a bet on 2nd or 3rd pair even versus a single opponent is not a bad thing to do in limit; the pots will generally lay you a decent price to call in comparison to the chance there is the opponent has missed completely. when someone else has called ahead of you though, the chances are these weaker holdings will be best goes WAY down; remember, you will NOT get a chance to possibly bet a large amount to get better hands than yours, but those still weak enough to fold to pressure, to fold.

3) Play "fit or fold"

In NL there tends to be times when you can take somewhat WEAK draws into another betting street with a call. the fact hitting those draws may lead to an opponent paying you off far MORE than the amount you risk makes it worthwhile. In limit you can only get a maximum of 4 bets out of a single opponent, and even that is pretty rare to see as he can CALL and stop your ability to extract if there is a "threat", so your ability to get implied odds out of lesser hands is far less in limit.

4) Know the nuts

Because of the greater pot odds draws will tend to get, as well as the lesser price those draws might be charged to draw in limit, the chance a "weird" straight or 2 pair hand might have filled tends to be greater in limit. As your hand value in hold 'em of any type is largely predicated upon its standing in relation to the best POSSIBLE hand on a given board, the fact more draws might be playing against you may dry up a lot of the value betting potential for a top pair type hand you can find in NL. so looking at your hand as it relates to the best possible hand on the board can often lead you to situations where a check/call would be more preferable in limit than the same choice would be in NL.

5) Know the reasons to bet, and WHY you are betting (or raising)

In limit, there are some bet types which become more effective than in NL. Due to the nature of the betting structure in limit, it becomes much more feasible to make a bet to "define" your hand in limit than in NL. Betting to gain "free cards", especially when doing so on the early "cheaper" streets, is a very effective limit strategy. Because a lot of opponents who do not play a lot of limit may not be familiar with points 1 and 2 here, betting/raising to isolate tends to be less effective in limit.

These are just a few thoughts which immediately occur to me that a newer limit player may not realize if they are transitioning from NL play.

The nature of Limit poker lends itself well to bank roll building actually. While the frequency and top en size of winning sessions may not tend to be as great as in NL, the losing sessions tend to be far less hurtful. As many NL players who struggle with building a bank roll probably do not have much problem booking SMALL winning sessions (as well as the occasional big one), they do tend to struggle with lessening their losses in NL sessions. Limit Hold 'em can be a very good method of working around the strong negative effects of "tilt" that can be seen in NL.

I strongly suggest you read Sklansky's "theory of poker" in addition to the PSO lessons if you intend to make Limit poker a significant part of your play.

hope it helps.

Last edited by JDean; Thu Oct 27, 2011 at 04:38 PM..
 
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Thu Oct 27, 2011, 06:24 PM
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XxTiberxX's Avatar
Since: Sep 2011
Posts: 374
I thank you for this very big advice wall read it all in 1 go and was very educational.
 
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Sun Nov 06, 2011, 08:44 PM
(#11)
Tomcrockpot's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 140
Very helpful post JDean... I am playing just 2c/4c limit ring games at the moment. Plus the odd freeroll or SNG NL tourney..

I enjoy NL but don't think I'm ready to handle the big swings it will inflict on my bankroll yet.

Here are my results from the last 900 hands or so or 2c/4c limit. My bankroll is about $20 at the moment.. I'm keen to grow my bankroll quickly, should I be thinking about stepping up to 5c/10c limit?
 
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Sun Nov 06, 2011, 09:09 PM
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Tom, it will depend on your bankroll. The 5/10 games will have alot of variance in them, so, if your bankroll can withstand the larger ups and especially the downs, then it's ok to move up.

The thing you need to do is to follow good bankroll management.
 
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Mon Nov 07, 2011, 07:32 AM
(#13)
JDean's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomcrockpot View Post
Very helpful post JDean... I am playing just 2c/4c limit ring games at the moment. Plus the odd freeroll or SNG NL tourney..

I enjoy NL but don't think I'm ready to handle the big swings it will inflict on my bankroll yet.

Here are my results from the last 900 hands or so or 2c/4c limit. My bankroll is about $20 at the moment.. I'm keen to grow my bankroll quickly, should I be thinking about stepping up to 5c/10c limit?
Great start Tomcrockpot, but be careful that you do not see it as more than that: a start.

My thoughts about moving up in levels and bank roll management in general differ quite drastically from a lot of people's thoughts. For me, "being careful" about the levels at which I play because I might possibly lose a relatively insignificant amount like $20 is somewhat useless. Before you think I am saying that because I am trying to come off like some "big money player", let me explain...

To me, if my available money to play poker is insignificant and easily replaced, then the more of that money (as a percentage of that available amount) I have at risk, the more reward potential I am likely to have AS LONG AS I HAVE A SKILL ADVANTAGE.

Example:

If an amount like $20 is one I could easily replace, that means LOSING that $20 does not put me out of action. If I lose, I simply deposit more, and keep playing.

As long as I have expectation of having a skill advantage on my opponents, there is no need to only put a small percentage of an easily replaced amount of money at risk in order to avoid going broke.

If I put a larger percentage of my available cash on the table in a single buy in, my skill advantage will tend to see that I derive a larger return when I win. When I do get hit by inevitable "bad luck" and wind up busted off my insignificant start amount, I simply reach into my pocket, deposit more, and get back in action.

See?

This does not mean if all I have available is $20, I will immediately run out and start playing at the 50c/$1 (25c/50c blinds) FLHE level. Sure, I MIGHT do that, but since I am currently un-employed, having $20 to play on means I would not really want to risk ALL that amount on a single buy in. I probably would not hesitate to play the 10c/20c (5c/10c blinds) FLHE level though, with only 5 available buy in's in my "bank roll" though; this is far riskier than the accepted norm.

Common bank roll management practices call for you to not put more than about 2% to 5% of your available bank roll at risk on any single buy in. This means following my way of thinking about insignificant and easily replaced amounts of money will put you at far greater risk of losing all your available cash if bad luck does hit.

Of course if you do NOT get hit by bad luck, you will also tend to win much larger amounts than the "safer" methods of protecting your bank roll may give.

If I had $1000 on line, then that amount would be "significant" to me, and very hard to replace. with that amount available, I would certainly want to "protect" it from the ill effect of variance in order to give myself time to grow that amount. That means with $1000 there is no way I'd be playing at a level that would see me having only 5 available buy in's...see?

This is they way I view it, but that may not work well for you...

In order to find out what DOES work for you, you really must answer your question here for yourself. I can give you some hints on things to think about though...

1) do you, or do you not have a skill advantage over opponents?

If you do not really have a skill advantage over opponents you will go broke no matter how much you try to protect your poker bank roll.

Your current graph shows good signs, but it is really not enough info to really be sure you were not just "running good".

If you do not have a skill advantage on opponents, moving up in levels will tend to mean you lose faster than you would at lower levels.

So you really want to know the answer to this question BEFORE you think about moving up.

Suggestion: If you want to keep from risking the loss of your $20, wait another 10k to 15k more hands, or wait until you have won enough to increase your playing roll to around $80 or so, before moving up to the 5c/10c.

If you are still showing a positive ROI after that many hands, or if you hit $80 in FLHE ($60 more in winnings) at the 2c/4c level, you have good reason to suspect your game is strong enough to to move up to 5c/10c games.

2) If you are anxious to move up and want to do it NOW because you are "keen" on growing your bank roll quickly, only do so if you are willing to LOSE your current $20 and then replace it.

If $20 is not a hard to replace amount for you, there is no reason why you cannot take a few "shots" at the higher level right now. However...

You do NOT want to take those shots if $20 does represent an amount you'd find hard to replace, or if you are grinding up and do not want to HAVE to replace your $20.

While there is nothing stopping you from moving back down to the 2c/4c level if you lose a buy in at the 5c/10c level, you have to understand that 1 lost buy in at 5c/10c represents represents a loss of a little over 2 of your normal 2c/4c buy ins.

Also, if you are showing a positive hourly win rate at the 2c/4c level, the loss of a single buy in at the 5c/10c level will take you a little over twice as long to re-coup at the 2c/4c level than a loss of 1 BI at that lower level.

So moving up and losing even ONCE can represent a pretty big "set back" if you then move back to your normal level.

If you are un-willing to possibly set in motion a cycle which may result in bad luck taking all of your $20 bank roll after even just 1 losing "shot" at the higher level, you are far better off waiting to move up until you have between 20 to 50 buy in's for the higher level already in hand.

BOTTOM LINE:

What works for me in terms of managing my poker money Tom, may not work as well for you.

I can offer you no magic formulae for avoiding going bust.

It is up to you to look inside yourself and determine what your personal goals are, what risk you are willing to accept to reach those goals, and how fast you want to hit those goals.

Playing higher buy in levels MIGHT result in you winning money at a faster rate, but it will only do that if you have a skill edge on your opponents. If you do not have a skill edge on your opponents you will probably end up losing money faster at the higher level.

The best I can do to answer your question here Tom is to provide you things to think about, and I've tried to do that here. The ANSWER you are seeking though, is one that ultimately you must provide for yourself.

Hope it helps...

-JDean

Last edited by JDean; Mon Nov 07, 2011 at 08:30 AM..
 
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Mon Nov 07, 2011, 08:04 AM
(#14)
XxTiberxX's Avatar
Since: Sep 2011
Posts: 374
Listen to JDean he is a very intelligent man, its just matter of personal preference and what you are willing to risk.

BTW, always aim for a goal you want to make, make it 5% or 10% win, if you aim for 100% win you will lose eventually because you try to hard. It wouldnt be reasonable because after a few weeks you would be millionair .

Also dont get attached to money, its just a number. If you get attached to it, you will have trouble putting it in, and everytime you lose some, you will go a little tilt inside and will play looser and problaby lose more.

Finally, you cannot extract anything from 900 hands, you may have a win streak, be not surprised to lose that ammount in the next 900 hands IF it happens
ps. just an extra fact I average about 1600 hands per night I play, just in comparison you cannot rely on them for stats
 
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Mon Nov 07, 2011, 08:29 AM
(#15)
Tomcrockpot's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 140
Many thanks JDean..

Everything makes sense.. To me $20 is "insignificant" although obviously I'd rather not lose it.. I think at the moment I feel like I want to be able to grind up without making having to make any extra deposits, plus I guess I want to be confident my game really is good enough, so I guess I will keep playing at this level for a while longer

Thanks again

edit.. At the moment I'm only playing about 100 hands a day or so.. Guess I'll need to multi table a little more to get things moving!

Last edited by Tomcrockpot; Mon Nov 07, 2011 at 08:31 AM.. Reason: extra stuff
 
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Mon Nov 07, 2011, 08:35 AM
(#16)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomcrockpot View Post
Many thanks JDean..

Everything makes sense.. To me $20 is "insignificant" although obviously I'd rather not lose it.. I think at the moment I feel like I want to be able to grind up without making having to make any extra deposits, plus I guess I want to be confident my game really is good enough, so I guess I will keep playing at this level for a while longer

Thanks again
Then that is EXACTLY what you should do Tom.

I'm not going to bother wishing you good luck, I much prefer to wish you something even better for a poker player.

I wish you...

"Good Decisions"!

-JDean
 
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Mon Nov 07, 2011, 09:43 AM
(#17)
XxTiberxX's Avatar
Since: Sep 2011
Posts: 374
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomcrockpot View Post
Many thanks JDean..

Everything makes sense.. To me $20 is "insignificant" although obviously I'd rather not lose it.. I think at the moment I feel like I want to be able to grind up without making having to make any extra deposits, plus I guess I want to be confident my game really is good enough, so I guess I will keep playing at this level for a while longer

Thanks again

edit.. At the moment I'm only playing about 100 hands a day or so.. Guess I'll need to multi table a little more to get things moving!
ive got no thanks just kidding

100 hands a day is not bad, dont multitable untill you are comfortable with it, and keep everything together, I was just pointing out that 900 hands is not a good stat, didnt wanna tell you to multitable
 
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Mon Nov 07, 2011, 01:23 PM
(#18)
Tomcrockpot's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 140
ha ha..

Sorry, thanks also XxTiberxX

Useful to know that 900 hands is not enough to be significant yet.. The last few days I have been playing 2 tables and stayed profitable, so I will stick like that for now.
 

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