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AK facing a reraise on the turn

 
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AK facing a reraise on the turn - Wed Oct 26, 2011, 03:58 AM
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Ibag123's Avatar
Since: Sep 2011
Posts: 37
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Sorry, this hand was deleted by its owner

how could i save chips here ?

Last edited by Ibag123; Wed Oct 26, 2011 at 04:01 AM.. Reason: mistake
 
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Wed Oct 26, 2011, 05:06 AM
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JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibag123 View Post
Sorry, this hand was deleted by its owner

how could i save chips here ?
1) Don't get "cute-sy" with the min raise versus a larger stack.

Was a min raise your "standard" open raise amount?
If so, why?

If it was, then it is fine; you are probably raising that same amount with great strength AND more marginal holdings. But if you are playing a pretty TIGHT open range, say on the order of less than about 15% VPiP, then that "small ball" raise tends to encourage the blinds to "take shots" at you when you lay the BB 3.5 to 1 to call.

The idea behind small ball type open raise amounts is that they can be made with greater frequency, say around 20% to 30% VPiP, and then the wider open range gives more possibilities in post flop play. The fact you are opening more frequently for the small amount communicates the "threat" that THIS TIME you might have a "monster", and it is dangerous to call along even for the small amount because that "monster" may not appear until post flop.

If you are playing a tighter range, then opening for a more standard 3BB amount builds the pot faster, and makes your C-Bets carry more "weight". The chance of the BB facing a LARGER C-Bet that he might find hard to call on a draw oop.

2) Don't bet so much on continuation.

Why do you C-Bet 3/4ths of the pot?
Can any WORSE hand than your AKo call that amount?

The idea behind C-Bets are to represent whichever hand best fits the flop after you have open raised; if the board comes A hi, you are "giving" yourself AK even if you raised JJ to open, and if the board comes 667 you are "giving" yourself an over pair. This means C-Bets should be sized to look as if you WANT them called, while also carefully denying odds to any possible draws.

By betting 75% pot on continuation, what do you expect to call you?
You only need to bet about 1/3rd pot to deny odds to an oesd.
Since you are trying to represent an over pair on this flop, you should really not be "scared" of a call by a hand like 88/99, so why would you bet 75% and possibly see those hands fold?

A "standard" C-Bet sizing in a heads up pot is usually somewhere between 40% and 60% pot, not 75%.

3) Don't over-estimate the value of impropvement for your hand.

By the turn, we have seen these things at work in the hand:
A) a SMALL initial raise size which laid big odds to hthe BB to call, thus widening his potential call range to nearly "any 2".
B) a STRONG C-Bet by us which the BB check/called on a paired board with only 2 real draw possibilities.
C) a STRONG turn bet (another 75% pot bet) that brought about a CHECK-RAISE form the BB; that check/raise was a min raise, and a call sets up the BB to get us in on the river.

Looking at it now, does it really look like 2 pair Aces and 6's is likely to be good here?

The truth of the matter is, the very first check/call of your big C-Bet should have thrown up red flags, simply because of your small pre-flop raise opens the BB's call range; that call range could include hands like A6/77/76/6x, all of which have your turn spike in serious trouble. You pretty much stick yourself to this pot HARD when you make your bet on the turned A, and that was the spot you might have wanted to "see" the potential strength in a check/call oop of a C-Bet.

By the time you lead for a 75% pot bet on the turn, it is probably too late and you are pretty stuck.
 
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Wed Oct 26, 2011, 07:54 AM
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Ibag123's Avatar
Since: Sep 2011
Posts: 37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JDean View Post
1) Don't get "cute-sy" with the min raise versus a larger stack.

Was a min raise your "standard" open raise amount?
If so, why?

If it was, then it is fine; you are probably raising that same amount with great strength AND more marginal holdings. But if you are playing a pretty TIGHT open range, say on the order of less than about 15% VPiP, then that "small ball" raise tends to encourage the blinds to "take shots" at you when you lay the BB 3.5 to 1 to call.

The idea behind small ball type open raise amounts is that they can be made with greater frequency, say around 20% to 30% VPiP, and then the wider open range gives more possibilities in post flop play. The fact you are opening more frequently for the small amount communicates the "threat" that THIS TIME you might have a "monster", and it is dangerous to call along even for the small amount because that "monster" may not appear until post flop.

If you are playing a tighter range, then opening for a more standard 3BB amount builds the pot faster, and makes your C-Bets carry more "weight". The chance of the BB facing a LARGER C-Bet that he might find hard to call on a draw oop.

2) Don't bet so much on continuation.

Why do you C-Bet 3/4ths of the pot?
Can any WORSE hand than your AKo call that amount?

The idea behind C-Bets are to represent whichever hand best fits the flop after you have open raised; if the board comes A hi, you are "giving" yourself AK even if you raised JJ to open, and if the board comes 667 you are "giving" yourself an over pair. This means C-Bets should be sized to look as if you WANT them called, while also carefully denying odds to any possible draws.

By betting 75% pot on continuation, what do you expect to call you?
You only need to bet about 1/3rd pot to deny odds to an oesd.
Since you are trying to represent an over pair on this flop, you should really not be "scared" of a call by a hand like 88/99, so why would you bet 75% and possibly see those hands fold?

A "standard" C-Bet sizing in a heads up pot is usually somewhere between 40% and 60% pot, not 75%.

3) Don't over-estimate the value of impropvement for your hand.

By the turn, we have seen these things at work in the hand:
A) a SMALL initial raise size which laid big odds to hthe BB to call, thus widening his potential call range to nearly "any 2".
B) a STRONG C-Bet by us which the BB check/called on a paired board with only 2 real draw possibilities.
C) a STRONG turn bet (another 75% pot bet) that brought about a CHECK-RAISE form the BB; that check/raise was a min raise, and a call sets up the BB to get us in on the river.

Looking at it now, does it really look like 2 pair Aces and 6's is likely to be good here?

The truth of the matter is, the very first check/call of your big C-Bet should have thrown up red flags, simply because of your small pre-flop raise opens the BB's call range; that call range could include hands like A6/77/76/6x, all of which have your turn spike in serious trouble. You pretty much stick yourself to this pot HARD when you make your bet on the turned A, and that was the spot you might have wanted to "see" the potential strength in a check/call oop of a C-Bet.

By the time you lead for a 75% pot bet on the turn, it is probably too late and you are pretty stuck.


ok i think i got it - i allways c-bet 3\4 of the pot either whene i miss or hits.

so what your saying is my c-bet either way should be lower?

the only way i should bet 3\4 \ pot size bet is in heavy draw board where i hit ?
 
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Wed Oct 26, 2011, 02:39 PM
(#4)
oriholic's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 751
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Preflop is fine if 2X is your standard, though I'd probably lean more toward betting around 350-400. You are in mid position and you don't want to give the button/cutoff good reason to just come along, because that will put you out of position. You also want to get value out of your strong holding.

Your C-bet on such a dry board is way too big. He either hits this or he doesn't. I'd bet half the pot or even LESS! You have position, so he's probably not gonna just float you, meaning if he check/calls he probably has at least a draw, and probably has a solid piece of the board.

Okay, so what hands can he have here? 7x, 88-AA, 6x, 66, 45, 89, mayyyybe some overcards? Probably not 22-55 but even still...

What do you accomplish by betting the A on the turn? Ace is a scare card. 7x, 88-KK are probably not raising you now. Remember your goal is to get worse hands to call. Your bet is too big for the 45 and 89 draws to come along for another street, so they're probably not continuing either. Okay, so you have top pair, top kicker, cool, that's a pretty good hand right?...now how can this guy want to put more money in on this ace? Well, if he has an ace, he'll be happy to...what aces can he have? Remember he called the flop, so he must have had a piece then...well that leaves us with A6 (bad), A7 (bad), and AA (terrible). Maybe he can have AQ or AJ, but that's pretty unlikely to float that out of position, even if he had a backdoor flush draw.

Maybe he will again check/call with a hand like 88-KK? Okay, if he'll do that sort of thing, there is totally value in betting here. But you must be prepared to bet/fold. If he's the kind of guy you expect to check/call with 99 on 667A, he's probably not the kind to check/raise 89! Since he's almost never bluffing, and probably never raising worse than top pair...you're crushed. You can't beat a single hand in his value raising range. Easy fold to the check/raise on the turn.

The turn's not a bad place to try to keep the pot small. You have top pair top kicker, so you beat a ton of his range, but none of his get it in range generally. The ace is a scary card, and it will make a lot of people fold their 88-KK hands. If he's the kind that will fold those pairs to the overcard ace, betting here is the worst thing you can do. He will fold every single hand you beat and only continue when he's ahead. Checking behind here keeps the pot small, and it is a little deceptive, making your hand look fairly weak...it looks like you have a hand like 87, 88, 99 etc. that can win a showdown, but might fold to enough pressure. Or it looks like you have a hand that can win a showdown and wants to try to bluffcatch and can be value bet by a JJ-KK hand.

So yeah, against a loose passive player I like bet/folding the turn. (and probably just checking back the river as I'm happy with two streets of value--even though the flop wasn't exactly value). While against a more aggressive player I prefer checking back the turn intending to call most river bets. Oh and betting the river if he checks as again he can call with all those pairs.

Last edited by oriholic; Wed Oct 26, 2011 at 03:54 PM..
 
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Wed Oct 26, 2011, 05:24 PM
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JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibag123 View Post
ok i think i got it - i allways c-bet 3\4 of the pot either whene i miss or hits.

so what your saying is my c-bet either way should be lower?

the only way i should bet 3\4 \ pot size bet is in heavy draw board where i hit ?
You gotta remember the purpose of a C-Bet. That purpose is to extract extra value either by getting called when you hit, or forcing folds by rep'ping a flop hit after you've raised to enter.

CAN a 3/4ths pot bet on continuation be for value?

Certainly it can be. If the opponent will CALL that amount with lesser hands than you hold, then it is definately better to charge him that larger price to continue. The PROBLEM with making 3/4ths pot your "standard" C-Bet size is that you will tend to be losing MORE on the flops you miss if/when the opponent calls or raises.

The other problem with making a 3/4ths pot bet on your flop hits and lesser bets on your misses, is that you throw off PATTERNS in your bet sizing amounts by doing that. Even marginally "aware" players can begin to pick up on those patterns, and that leaves you vulnerable to "float" plays and other bluffs to exploit your patterns.

In most cases a "bluff" can be described as ANY bet made in the hopes an opponent FOLDS.
A C-Bet made when you do not connect with the flop is generally made in the hopes of getting that fold.

The BEST bet size amount you can hope for when you bluff bet is to select an amount exactly 1 chip more than what the opponent will be willing to call or raise; any amount ABOVE that is "wasted" and puts you at risk of further chip loss if the bluff does not work.

If a 40% to 60% bet will work the SAME as a 75% pot bet will when you want a FOLD, why do you want to bet 75% and put yourself at greater risk from a call or a raise?

And if you CANNOT charge more for your hits and less for your misses without throwing off patterns your opponents might exploit, why adopt a 75% pot bet as your "standard" C-Bet for ALL circumstances?

See?

So yes, the only times you should consider LARGER C-Bets than a standard of around 40% to 60% pot is:

1) In multi-way pots.

These pots usually call for a larger C-Bet, between 66% and full pot.

When the pot is multi-way, you run the risk that a smaller bet will get called by someone who makes a "mistake" by calling without good odds. This first "mistake" may then lead to LATER acting opponents receiving a "correct price" for THEIR draws. A failure to bet enough that might "thin the herd" a bit puts you at greater risk for a loss of the pot.

While you do NOT necessarily need to hold what you think is the best hand in a multi-way pot to C-Bet after raising to enter, if you do not feel confident that your hand has enough "potential" to become the best hand on a later street (such as if you hold TT on a K Q 7 flop), and if you ALSO feel you cannot C-Bet and get all your opponents to fold, you are often better served by not C-Betting at all in a multi-way pot situation.

2) When the board texture presents likely draw threats which might call MORE if you bet for value.

There is a material difference between the threat of draws being present on a 2h 3d 9h flop, and a Jh Qd 3h flop after you've raised to enter and hold either a top/top hand or a board over pair.

Not a lot of opponents will call a raise with a hand which will connect with the first flop on a 2-way draw of some sort. Hands like KQh/ATh/KT all confer 'extra" out value, either from overcards to the board plus the 8 or 9 out draws, or from straight and flush draws; a lot more opponents will tend to call raises with those sorts of hands.

In order to deny odds to those hands which might have extra out value, you will tend to need to bet MORE on the flops with carry draw threats that fall more into the likely playing range of opponents.

The "worry" of throwing off patterns when you C-Bet your MISSES on flops like this is lessened, because opponents who might be aware enough to pick up on those patterns will also (probably) be aware enough to recognize WHY you might bet more on continuation with the 2nd flop.

I think this covers your exact Question about whether you should "only" C-Bet larger on highly coordinated flops for value. To be more specific, you should probably be more willing to NOT C-bet at all on highly coordinated flops UNLESS it is for value.

Hope it helps.
 
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Thu Oct 27, 2011, 06:21 AM
(#6)
Ibag123's Avatar
Since: Sep 2011
Posts: 37
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDean View Post
You gotta remember the purpose of a C-Bet. That purpose is to extract extra value either by getting called when you hit, or forcing folds by rep'ping a flop hit after you've raised to enter.

CAN a 3/4ths pot bet on continuation be for value?

Certainly it can be. If the opponent will CALL that amount with lesser hands than you hold, then it is definately better to charge him that larger price to continue. The PROBLEM with making 3/4ths pot your "standard" C-Bet size is that you will tend to be losing MORE on the flops you miss if/when the opponent calls or raises.

The other problem with making a 3/4ths pot bet on your flop hits and lesser bets on your misses, is that you throw off PATTERNS in your bet sizing amounts by doing that. Even marginally "aware" players can begin to pick up on those patterns, and that leaves you vulnerable to "float" plays and other bluffs to exploit your patterns.

In most cases a "bluff" can be described as ANY bet made in the hopes an opponent FOLDS.
A C-Bet made when you do not connect with the flop is generally made in the hopes of getting that fold.

The BEST bet size amount you can hope for when you bluff bet is to select an amount exactly 1 chip more than what the opponent will be willing to call or raise; any amount ABOVE that is "wasted" and puts you at risk of further chip loss if the bluff does not work.

If a 40% to 60% bet will work the SAME as a 75% pot bet will when you want a FOLD, why do you want to bet 75% and put yourself at greater risk from a call or a raise?

And if you CANNOT charge more for your hits and less for your misses without throwing off patterns your opponents might exploit, why adopt a 75% pot bet as your "standard" C-Bet for ALL circumstances?

See?

So yes, the only times you should consider LARGER C-Bets than a standard of around 40% to 60% pot is:

1) In multi-way pots.

These pots usually call for a larger C-Bet, between 66% and full pot.

When the pot is multi-way, you run the risk that a smaller bet will get called by someone who makes a "mistake" by calling without good odds. This first "mistake" may then lead to LATER acting opponents receiving a "correct price" for THEIR draws. A failure to bet enough that might "thin the herd" a bit puts you at greater risk for a loss of the pot.

While you do NOT necessarily need to hold what you think is the best hand in a multi-way pot to C-Bet after raising to enter, if you do not feel confident that your hand has enough "potential" to become the best hand on a later street (such as if you hold TT on a K Q 7 flop), and if you ALSO feel you cannot C-Bet and get all your opponents to fold, you are often better served by not C-Betting at all in a multi-way pot situation.

2) When the board texture presents likely draw threats which might call MORE if you bet for value.

There is a material difference between the threat of draws being present on a 2h 3d 9h flop, and a Jh Qd 3h flop after you've raised to enter and hold either a top/top hand or a board over pair.

Not a lot of opponents will call a raise with a hand which will connect with the first flop on a 2-way draw of some sort. Hands like KQh/ATh/KT all confer 'extra" out value, either from overcards to the board plus the 8 or 9 out draws, or from straight and flush draws; a lot more opponents will tend to call raises with those sorts of hands.

In order to deny odds to those hands which might have extra out value, you will tend to need to bet MORE on the flops with carry draw threats that fall more into the likely playing range of opponents.

The "worry" of throwing off patterns when you C-Bet your MISSES on flops like this is lessened, because opponents who might be aware enough to pick up on those patterns will also (probably) be aware enough to recognize WHY you might bet more on continuation with the 2nd flop.

I think this covers your exact Question about whether you should "only" C-Bet larger on highly coordinated flops for value. To be more specific, you should probably be more willing to NOT C-bet at all on highly coordinated flops UNLESS it is for value.

Hope it helps.
ye it halps a lots, i reduced the amunt of my c-beting to 1\2 pot and i noticed this - if an opponon did not hit the board he wont call even if im bluffing - and if he hits i saved me some chips by not C-bet 3\4.
thank you very much !
 

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