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How to play AK ?

 
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How to play AK ? - Thu Oct 27, 2011, 10:53 AM
(#1)
spike8998's Avatar
Since: Apr 2010
Posts: 853
This was in the Open league
This was my 4th hand after being dealt 8sJs,6h4c and 9h3h
I have a felling a lot of people would have played this even raised pre-flop
But you know these donks have had the fold option removed



By the way I went on to finish 681st out of a 10k field

Last edited by spike8998; Thu Oct 27, 2011 at 10:55 AM..
 
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Thu Oct 27, 2011, 11:33 AM
(#2)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,512
(Head Trainer)
Is this a question? The fold is really, really bad. Willingly folding when you have a solid edge when a call amounts to 3% of your stack is never good poker. As it was if you would have seen the flop you would have gotten it in as a significant favorite.

Posting the result as though it justifies a really bad fold is also not good. It's the height of results oriented thinking, and this type of thinking will prevent you from being a winning poker player so it is essential you get past it.

Sorry if this is harsh spike, but I can't impress upon you enough how detrimental to your poker improvement results oriented thinking is, and this post is a great example of why... you've used a favorable result to justify a bad play, which will only leads to making more and more bad plays. Sometimes we make bad plays and get a good result, but the result of a single trial isn't relevant, it's the results on average, over many trials, that makes decisions good or bad and leads to long term success or failure. Just like sometimes we make good plays and get a bad result. This is a part of poker that is very difficult for some to grasp, but it's an essential one to get your head around.

Dave
 
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Thu Oct 27, 2011, 11:36 AM
(#3)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,512
(Head Trainer)
FYI re this specific result... you might have actually increased your stack had you gotten involved... the guy that called off to the overbet flop shove with 86 missed, and while you would have lost 500 to the shorty who got lucky, you could have won over 800 from the 86. Since he called the overbet shove there's no reason to think he wouldn't have stacked off to you on the draw (maybe he wouldn't, but certainly he might have).
 
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Thu Oct 27, 2011, 11:45 AM
(#4)
spike8998's Avatar
Since: Apr 2010
Posts: 853
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLangolier View Post
Is this a question? The fold is really, really bad. Willingly folding when you have a solid edge when a call amounts to 3% of your stack is never good poker. As it was if you would have seen the flop you would have gotten it in as a significant favorite.

Posting the result as though it justifies a really bad fold is also not good. It's the height of results oriented thinking, and this type of thinking will prevent you from being a winning poker player so it is essential you get past it.

Sorry if this is harsh spike, but I can't impress upon you enough how detrimental to your poker improvement results oriented thinking is, and this post is a great example of why... you've used a favorable result to justify a bad play, which will only leads to making more and more bad plays. Sometimes we make bad plays and get a good result, but the result of a single trial isn't relevant, it's the results on average, over many trials, that makes decisions good or bad and leads to long term success or failure. Just like sometimes we make good plays and get a bad result. This is a part of poker that is very difficult for some to grasp, but it's an essential one to get your head around.



Dave
I thought i would receive a response such as yours
But the the fold was result oriented which worked imo
But if this had happened in a normal mtt or sng I'm 4xbb betting preflop
Of course I call the post flop shove from the short stack and shove more on the turn
Just enough to keep the draw player interested , don't wanna scare him away
But as this is not a 'NORMAL' mtt I think I did the wise thing

Thanks for replay Dave , it wasn't harsh at all
 
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Thu Oct 27, 2011, 11:57 AM
(#5)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,512
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by spike8998 View Post
But the the fold was result oriented which worked imo
This is exactly what I'm trying to get across.

You would have lost to the all in this time. And that's totally irrelevant. What's relevant is that over thousands of similar trials, if you got involved in this pot every time you would expect to end with more than 1500 chips on average (sometimes losing chips, sometimes winning chips, but on average over many trials). By folding you always have 1500 chips. If after thousands of trials you would have more than 1500 chips, then you're giving up edge by folding. If less, then you're saving edge (edge that would be given to your opponents).

BTW, it didn't necessarily work in this trial, as I think it's possible you would have increased your stack despite losing to the short stack all in guy that got lucky... the 86o guy had more chips and missed.
 
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Thu Oct 27, 2011, 01:01 PM
(#6)
!!!111Dan's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 3,290
Quote:
Originally Posted by spike8998 View Post
.....
But the the fold was result oriented which worked imo
.......
nuh uh .........
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLangolier View Post
FYI re this specific result... you might have actually increased your stack had you gotten involved... the guy that called off to the overbet flop shove with 86 missed, and while you would have lost 500 to the shorty who got lucky, you could have won over 800 from the 86. Since he called the overbet shove there's no reason to think he wouldn't have stacked off to you on the draw (maybe he wouldn't, but certainly he might have).
bad
(you'll always be the original spike)
 
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Thu Oct 27, 2011, 01:07 PM
(#7)
spike8998's Avatar
Since: Apr 2010
Posts: 853
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLangolier View Post

You would have lost to the all in this time. And that's totally irrelevant. What's relevant is that over thousands of similar trials, if you got involved in this pot every time you would expect to end with more than 1500 chips on average (sometimes losing chips, sometimes winning chips, but on average over many trials). By folding you always have 1500 chips. If after thousands of trials you would have more than 1500 chips, then you're giving up edge by folding. If less, then you're saving edge (edge that would be given to your opponents).
Thanks Dave , I never thought of that
But the monkey will always be funky Dan not bad lol
 
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Thu Oct 27, 2011, 02:17 PM
(#8)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
I think I "get" what Spike is trying to communicate here:

The Open Skill League contains so many players who will jam so many chips in, the likely hands which AK is going to flop are not going to be able to withstand the likely action in the pot; so he folded BEFORE seeing that action. Because the "ladder climbing" benefits of a cumulative monthly scoring league are so great, he feels that getting away from AK without investing ANYTHING on it is far preferable to playing AK and possibly being "forced off" an investment of 150 or 200.

Am I right in that Spike?

In an event with strong benefits from advancing, there is SOME validity to this reasoning, but only when you have already assured yourself of reaching a "point of benefit". Consider...

Let's say you are playing a Sattie for a WSOP Seat, and you had a chip stack 2 times the average with 4 bigger stacks at your table, and it was 10 more to ITM with 300 runners left.

You catch AA in the BB.

You see a short stack go all in, then another short stack call.

Then you see a bigger stack than you shove all in.

Would you CALL along, even though you hold the pre-flop nuts?

Probably not...

Even though in this situation you hold the BEST hand in poker, you probably have around a 20% chance to LOSE to the all in big stack. Your stack size with only 10 players left to a ticket probably gives you a FAR BETTER chance of making your ticket by FOLDING. Because your benefit from accumulating MORE chips is practically nil (since your stack now should allow you to coast to a ticket), you should NOT call and trade a 99%+ chance for a ticket for an 80% chance at getting a ticket with MORE chips and a 20% chance of missing your ticket.

You'd want to FOLD.

The DIFFERENCE between the hand you've posted, and the example of a "fold EVERYTHING to ladder climb" example shown here is simple: at your initial 1500 start stack, you have not yet "guarenteed" that you will make it to positive points!

Since you have not yet accumulated chips which have "assured" you of reaching plus points, you really could NOT pass up playing AA in the Open Skill League (if you got it), un-like the sattie where you COULD pass it up after locking down your ticket chances.

While it is true that the Open skill League DOES favor extreme risk avoidance, if you take that risk avoidance too far, you eliminate ANY chance of accumulating chips. If you do not at least accumulate SOME chips, you cannot cross over into positive points (unless your score is already very low). You will be ladder climbing so severely that you will blind down until you are all but "forced" to take any random hand as your "stand hand", and which is likely to give you a BETTER shot that random hand or AKo?

So while I can see not wanting to play AK AGGRESSIVELY here, I think a pre-flop fold is way WAY too tight. I mean AK is going to be a race at worse vs. any hand except AA/KK, and it stands to be FAR BETTER than what very loose villains are raising. What are you waiting on, only AA?

If that is the case, your 1500 start stack will not last through enough orbits to see AA, as you are only going to catch that 1 hand in 227.

Last edited by JDean; Thu Oct 27, 2011 at 02:20 PM..
 
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Thu Oct 27, 2011, 05:13 PM
(#9)
oriholic's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 751
BronzeStar
Seems like a textbook spot for a raise. Really, one of my favorites.

What does a limp mean here? Maybe a nit trying to limp trap with AA or KK (but you have an A and a K for some nice blockers!), or limping in with a small pair to flop a set, or loose weak players limping in with just about anything. Anyhow, raising here accomplishes a few things. It gives you the initiative, it helps you steal the button, it isolates the original limpers. Then depending on the flop and how many people come along, postflop plays itself. If only the original limper or two come along and the flop isn't too terrible (9TJ for instance is horrible) if they check to you take a small stab trying to get them to fold their small pairs. If they don't, you're done with the hand. If you hit the flop hard (like AK3) value-bet. If you hit the flop okay, like KQJ, maybe check it behind (if you bet and get check/raised you have to dump and that sucks for your hand especially with that gutshot to the nuts).

Now, if you know that a raise will accomplish the same thing as a limp, namely the button and blinds and original limpers will all still come along, then limping along may be a better choice. Raising gets you value and helps you to define the hand and isolate, but if it does neither then it just builds a big pot, but you really have a small pot hand (Top/top is the main focus with AK, not sets and combo draws). Keep the pot small and then try to stack AQ or make the nut straight.

I will add that I understand not really liking to play a hand like AK (well AQ anyhow) on deep stacks, particularly out of position. I'd even understand folding it in early position due to the reverse-implied odds, particularly if you have skilled position players on your left...But this is not that kind of situation. Also a cool thing about AK is that any pair you make will be top pair top kicker. Just try not to let the pot get out of control, but you can generally get a lot of value from a lot of worse hands.

Last edited by oriholic; Thu Oct 27, 2011 at 05:21 PM..
 

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