Home / Community / Forum / Support Area / Poker News /

Ethics of Looking At My Neighbors Cards?

Old
Default
Ethics of Looking At My Neighbors Cards? - Sat Oct 29, 2011, 03:50 AM
(#1)
PaidInFull6's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 342
Played some live SNG's today in which a nice lady sat to my direct right in, she had a bad habit of lifting her cards so that I could clearly see them several times. The first hand she did it I folded and politely informed her of what she was doing after the hand had played out. She adjusted slightly but I still clearly saw her hands a few times after this. I never did try and take advantage of it, mostly because I was dealt garbage every time I saw her hand, was it unethical to look at her cards like this? Or would you have tried to take full advantage of the situation?
 
Old
Default
Sat Oct 29, 2011, 03:59 AM
(#2)
hemetdennis's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,019
BronzeStar
I THINK AFTER YOU TELL HER ONCE YOUR IN THE CLEAR
NOW IF IT HAD BEEN SOME LOUD MOUTH GUY WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE DONE??

WHERE DO THEY HAVE SNG'S AND WHATS THE BUY IN'S??


 
Old
Default
Sat Oct 29, 2011, 03:59 AM
(#3)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaidInFull6 View Post
Played some live SNG's today in which a nice lady sat to my direct right in, she had a bad habit of lifting her cards so that I could clearly see them several times. The first hand she did it I folded and politely informed her of what she was doing after the hand had played out. She adjusted slightly but I still clearly saw her hands a few times after this. I never did try and take advantage of it, mostly because I was dealt garbage every time I saw her hand, was it unethical to look at her cards like this? Or would you have tried to take full advantage of the situation?
I posted this on another Un-named forum, in answer to your EXACT question:

All I can tell you is what I do in the same situation…

A while back, I was playing in a 6/12 limit game with a little old lady who was doing the same thing as the drunk in your game. She would lift her cards completely off the table and up to her face to see them, and on each street she would look again. As we were playing 10 handed Hold 'em at a STUD table (slightly smaller, designed for 8 or 9 players, not 10), there was basically no way I could avoid seeing her hand, short of asking for a seat change.

Obviously changing seats would have been DUMB, because anyone moved to that spot may not have qualms about using the info they'd get; that would put me at a dis-advantage.

I could not ask for a table change, as this was the only 6/12 LHE game going.

What I did was warn her I had seen her cards first once, then TWICE. The 2nd time was in case she had not heard me or did not understand after the first time I had seen her hand. After that, she was on her own, in my opinion, as was I.

My feelings about the matter were that as long as I did nothing to TRY to see her cards (crane my neck, re-position my chair, look over specificlly to try to catch her at it), then any info which happened to come my way as a result of her failing eye sight was ok for me to use.

To be honest, still I think of that situation, and wonder if what I did was "right".

On the one hand, it is pretty STUPID to even think about passing up such a huge advantage that could result in free money, but on the other hand was that money I won worth "taking advantage" of someone who probably could not physically do anything differently?

Maybe I should have shown her how to cup her cards in her hands so she could raise them to her face to see 'em…who knows.

I can live with the decision I did make though.
 
Old
Default
Sat Oct 29, 2011, 04:28 AM
(#4)
PaidInFull6's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 342
@JDean She wasn't drunk just inexperienced. She was looking back at her hand constantly when she was involved in a pot and I could see her cards by turning my head towards her when it was her turn to act. I wasn't purposely trying to see her cards and I turn towards every player in the game who's turn it is to act when I'm in a pot, but when she exposed her cards I couldn't help but look. I was actually trying to find a good spot to take advantage of it but that didn't feel right.

@Dennis I would have done the same thing I did if it was some loud mouth guy and I don't know of any casino's that run SNG's. The games where played at a casino dealing school that wanted to get the dealers experience in a game where the players actually played for real money instead of a fake money bingo fest.
 
Old
Default
Sat Oct 29, 2011, 04:43 AM
(#5)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaidInFull6 View Post
@JDean She wasn't drunk just inexperienced. She was looking back at her hand constantly when she was involved in a pot and I could see her cards by turning my head towards her when it was her turn to act.
The person in the other example was drunk, but it all boils down to the same thing: the person who you were getting flashes from had no clue they were doing it, and even after being told about it, they continued.

There was a PSO live event in Tunica in '07. At that event I was seated next to a person (Tropitan777 if you are still around, HI!), and she was flashing her cards. As it was a PSO game, with a very friendly atmosphere (altho it WAS a $75 BI MTT!), it did not feel right not to tell her.

So I did...

I told her to stop "flashing me"!

She glanced down the front of her blouse with a blush, and I quickly said, "No...your CARDS!"

We had a laugh about it, and she was more careful about her cards thereafter.

I only include this story, because forever after that, until the end of "old" PSO, Trop was known as "the Flasher!"
 
Old
Default
Sat Oct 29, 2011, 05:11 AM
(#6)
hemetdennis's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,019
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaidInFull6 View Post
@JDean She wasn't drunk just inexperienced. She was looking back at her hand constantly when she was involved in a pot and I could see her cards by turning my head towards her when it was her turn to act. I wasn't purposely trying to see her cards and I turn towards every player in the game who's turn it is to act when I'm in a pot, but when she exposed her cards I couldn't help but look. I was actually trying to find a good spot to take advantage of it but that didn't feel right.

@Dennis I would have done the same thing I did if it was some loud mouth guy and I don't know of any casino's that run SNG's. The games where played at a casino dealing school that wanted to get the dealers experience in a game where the players actually played for real money instead of a fake money bingo fest.
OH SO WHERE'S THE SCHOOL ??
YEA I DON'T KNOW OF ANY UP HERE THAT HAVE THEM DAMN IT


 
Old
Default
Sat Oct 29, 2011, 07:38 AM
(#7)
FLsnookman's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 565
Well, it seems that this happens a good 6 out of 10 times I play live. I always tell the person then make a concerted effort to not see their cards. I always feel like a sap but I just think its the right thing to do. While it doesnt seem to help with my poker karma I do feel better not looking. Of course these are usually small buy in local tournies, but I like to think id do the same thing in any tourny.
 
Old
Default
Sat Oct 29, 2011, 03:31 PM
(#8)
PaidInFull6's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 342
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDean View Post
The person in the other example was drunk, but it all boils down to the same thing: the person who you were getting flashes from had no clue they were doing it, and even after being told about it, they continued.
So your saying at that point there is nothing wrong with using it to my advantage?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hemetdennis View Post
OH SO WHERE'S THE SCHOOL ??
It's a couple miles from my house in El Cajon, CA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FLsnookman View Post
Well, it seems that this happens a good 6 out of 10 times I play live. I always tell the person then make a concerted effort to not see their cards. I always feel like a sap but I just think its the right thing to do. While it doesnt seem to help with my poker karma I do feel better not looking. Of course these are usually small buy in local tournies, but I like to think id do the same thing in any tourny.
This is the first time it's ever happened to me, although I don't play live very often I never thought players showing their cards would be that common.
 
Old
Default
Sat Oct 29, 2011, 03:40 PM
(#9)
hemetdennis's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,019
BronzeStar
JUST FINISHED A HOUSE LAST MONTH IN CHULA VISTA


 
Old
Default
Sat Oct 29, 2011, 03:52 PM
(#10)
EdinFreeMan's Avatar
Since: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,540
Here are some thoughts, from am old guy who has not played much live poker but has studied moral philosophy / ethics to some extensive degree.

Once in a live poker game, I would take advantage of any information I could gain that was to my advantage. The game situation is not quite the same as general ethics. Of course in general life I would not steal money from a little old lady/drunk bloke/partially sighted or otherwise frail person, but when anybody enters the poker arena, if they are willing to put their cash in I will exploit any of their weaknesses, be that poor play, physical tells, general stupidity or any frailty that accidentally means they keep showing me what they are holding. Their willingness to put themselves into that situation presumably means they enjoy the game, however badly they might lose.

It is their choice to play and I will watch every player in the game to get whatever info I can, if one of them happens to accidentally keep showing me their cards I would probably not even mention it to them.

I am not saying this attitude is 'right', but then the ethics of gambling in general are debateable.

And despite any evidence to the contrary - I may just be a very bad man.

Ed from Edinburgh - EdinFreeMan
 
Old
Default
Sat Oct 29, 2011, 03:59 PM
(#11)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,824
(Super-Moderator)
BronzeStar
Ed,

I agree. If I see someone doing it, the first thing I'll do is to warn them about it. If they want to keep showing them... then it's fair game and I'll use it against them.
 
Old
Default
Sat Oct 29, 2011, 04:15 PM
(#12)
Herkstwin's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 255
We, as poker players, do everything we can to be deceitful, to mask our true holdings, to bluff, and we lie through our teeth (or keyboards) about the cards we mucked. In other words - we are not to be trusted because we are known liars! At the poker table that is.

BUT, we are moral, ethical people, who will tell a player they are flashing their cards, who will tell a dealer that we saw a card as it was dealt. We want to win every hand, or at least our fair share. We study books and videos on tells and we use all the other legal tools (e.g.; HUDs) at our disposal to gain advantage over our opponents.

I agree with JDean and the others - I would tell the "flasher" that I can see their cards - once, maybe twice. After that their decision to show me their cards is their choice and my advantage. Any other player at the table who knows what is happening should immediately request my seat for when I leave the table.

Herk
 
Old
Default
Sat Oct 29, 2011, 04:17 PM
(#13)
PaidInFull6's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 342
Quote:
Originally Posted by hemetdennis View Post
JUST FINISHED A HOUSE LAST MONTH IN CHULA VISTA


You were playing in Chula Vista or you just finished building a house of your own in Chula Vista? I lived in Chula for 10 years I had no clue any one in this forum was in my area.
 
Old
Default
Sat Oct 29, 2011, 04:26 PM
(#14)
hemetdennis's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,019
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaidInFull6 View Post
You were playing in Chula Vista or you just finished building a house of your own in Chula Vista? I lived in Chula for 10 years I had no clue any one in this forum was in my area.
I PUT A NEW HOUSE THERE OLD ONE HAD BURNED DOWN
THAT'S WHAT I DO
I LIVE IN HEMET SO I'M NOT THAT FAR FROM YOU
ARE YOU GOING TO THE GREEN BAY GAME NEXT WEEKEND ??


 
Old
Default
Sat Oct 29, 2011, 04:32 PM
(#15)
PaidInFull6's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 342
Quote:
Originally Posted by hemetdennis View Post
I PUT A NEW HOUSE THERE OLD ONE HAD BURNED DOWN
THAT'S WHAT I DO
I LIVE IN HEMET SO I'M NOT THAT FAR FROM YOU
ARE YOU GOING TO THE GREEN BAY GAME NEXT WEEKEND ??


Yeah I'll be at the game.
 
Old
Default
Sat Oct 29, 2011, 04:40 PM
(#16)
hemetdennis's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,019
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaidInFull6 View Post
Yeah I'll be at the game.
I'LL WATCH ON TV
ONE REASON I HOPE L.A. DOESN'T GET A TEAM


 
Old
Default
Sat Oct 29, 2011, 05:03 PM
(#17)
PaidInFull6's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 342
Quote:
Originally Posted by hemetdennis View Post
I'LL WATCH ON TV
ONE REASON I HOPE L.A. DOESN'T GET A TEAM


I hear you man I sure hope LA doesn't get one either, mostly because it will probably be the Chargers, that has me worried.

You still get the games up in Hemet if they are blacked out?
 
Old
Default
Sat Oct 29, 2011, 07:14 PM
(#18)
r0ck.carver's Avatar
Since: Apr 2011
Posts: 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaidInFull6 View Post
Played some live SNG's today in which a nice lady sat to my direct right in, she had a bad habit of lifting her cards so that I could clearly see them several times. The first hand she did it I folded and politely informed her of what she was doing after the hand had played out. She adjusted slightly but I still clearly saw her hands a few times after this. I never did try and take advantage of it, mostly because I was dealt garbage every time I saw her hand, was it unethical to look at her cards like this? Or would you have tried to take full advantage of the situation?
So here it is gems from the r0ck..... Eden is only partially correct ....as there are 7 others at the table and essentially you are "cheating" them to through no fault of your own. Given the fact the dealers are inexperienced they probably didn't know better but a pit boss should have been all over that like a fat kid on a cupcake!!! Point form is easiest soo.....
1) After you mentioned it the player in question should have taken care not to repeat the error.
2) If it occurred again inform the table as a whole making sure the dealer is aware of it! Get VERBAL confirmation of this(11 th commandment Cover thine own a$$) At that time the player should have been cautioned to comply or be asked to leave the table. The advantage of knowing even 2 extra cards can not be understated!!! This protects you!!! as all is on cam.
3) Legally the casino can withhold your winnings and you could be barred from the site if security wants to press the issue. They have no way of knowing if you are colluding or not without proof to the contrary!
4)The ethical question is mostly ,at this point , like eden stated do your best to play fair but if you can't help it you can't help it so use it! Once the dealer ,players and pit boss are aware of it and they do nothing well.........any how I ran this by a friend at the local casino who is #2 in security there and that was his advice. hope it helps
cheers r0ck
 
Old
Default
Sat Oct 29, 2011, 07:31 PM
(#19)
!!!111Dan's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 3,290
Quote:
Originally Posted by r0ck.carver View Post
3) Legally the casino can withhold your winnings and you could be barred from the site if security wants to press the issue. They have no way of knowing if you are colluding or not without proof to the contrary!
I've always warned players too. But rock makes a point here way more important than ethics.

 
Old
Default
Sat Oct 29, 2011, 08:00 PM
(#20)
hemetdennis's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,019
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaidInFull6 View Post
I hear you man I sure hope LA doesn't get one either, mostly because it will probably be the Chargers, that has me worried.

You still get the games up in Hemet if they are blacked out?

YEP NO BLACKOUTS
OH LOOK AT THAT IT'S TIME FOR USC FOOTBALL

 

Getting PokerStars is easy: download and install the PokerStars game software, create your free player account, and validate your email address. Clicking on the download poker button will lead to the installation of compatible poker software on your PC of 51.7 MB, which will enable you to register and play poker on the PokerStars platform. To uninstall PokerStars use the Windows uninstaller: click Start > Control Panel and then select Add or Remove programs > Select PokerStars and click Uninstall or Remove.

Copyright (c) PokerSchoolOnline.com. All rights reserved, Rational Group, Douglas Bay Complex, King Edward Road, Onchan, Isle of Man, IM3 1DZ. You can email us on support@pokerschoolonline.com