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6Max NLHE Scare Card on the River

 
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6Max NLHE Scare Card on the River - Mon Oct 31, 2011, 12:40 PM
(#1)
EdinFreeMan's Avatar
Since: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,540
I've stopped this hand before the showdown.

Dealt AK off I reraised preflop from SB against a raise from the button and was called.

Missed the flop but C-bet on a Ten high flop and was called again.

Ace came on the turn so I barrel once more and am again called.

Then the board pairs the tens, so I have top two pairs - but should I be worried about the villain having a ten? As you can see I just pile some more in on the river and get called. Should I have shoved the lot? Should I have been more controlled, as I was probably going to call it off anyway, once the potential flushes had missed.

Part of the problem was I was very new at the table so I had no reads, but then neither did the villain.

Any thoughts on a better alternative line with this board?







Good luck all

Ed from Edinburgh - EdinFreeMan

Last edited by EdinFreeMan; Mon Oct 31, 2011 at 12:42 PM..
 
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Mon Oct 31, 2011, 01:39 PM
(#2)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,788
(Super-Moderator)
BronzeStar
first off, let me say that I'm more used to full ring games, than 6-max, so the others that are more used to 6-max may know alot more than me on this one.

I like the line you took preflop, flop and turn. It makes total sense to me with the hand you have. The river, the only cards I wouldn't want to see would be a board pair or a diamond. I'd range the opp as a 10 (if so, probably J10s, Q10s, A10s or 10's), Ax diamonds, 55, JJ-KK, or even 2 broadway cards (overs to the flop and turned a gutshot).

The river makes this one really interesting. Personally, I like the leadout value bet, but I may have bet a bit less due to the fact that the opp could just call with some hands that have you beat (that they may not want to raise with, as they'd be unsure if they had the best hand too).
If you check, the opp will probably push (at least I would with any bluff catching hand), putting you into a real bad situation.
 
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Mon Oct 31, 2011, 01:50 PM
(#3)
oriholic's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 751
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No reads? Reads would be kinda helpful. Just enough to know if you've seen this guy doing more calling or betting postflop. Does he strike you as more passive or aggressive?

You may want to make a slightly larger 3-bet preflop out of position. Or just call to keep the pot small. I like your 3-bet size a lot more if you have position on someone. When he calls your 3-bet what can he have?

The flop is pretty coordinated, but based on your hand is not a bad one to C-bet as you have overcards and a backdoor flush draw. When called you have to think about what he can have...flush draws, pairs, straight draws, etc. Would he call you with a small pair, backdoor flush draw, etc.?

The turn is a great card. You now have top/top, most likely the best hand, and there are a ton of worse hands you can get value from. You also have to bet here a good amount of the time, so that the ace is an actual good bluffing card for you. He calls again. Clearly he has something now. Maybe it's just a small pair, maybe he floated Ace high, maybe he still has his flush draw or straight draw. And yes Tx is a real possibility.

River comes down to this: Would he bet a missed draw here? EVERY draw missed. If he bets a decent amount of missed draws, I'd check/call. If he'd just check those behind, he'd probably do the same with any made hand you beat, so I'd bet/fold. Against some aggressive players you can even make a block bet intending to call a raise but you need a real strong read for that--not a lot of players are bluff-raising the river.

Last edited by oriholic; Mon Oct 31, 2011 at 02:07 PM..
 
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Mon Oct 31, 2011, 02:22 PM
(#4)
EdinFreeMan's Avatar
Since: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,540
No reads at all I am afraid - I had only been here long enough to pay the blinds twice, hence my nearly full stack as I took the $5 max. Probably only 10 hands in and not much action to go on. Going by his similar stack size I was guessing he took the max too and had played a few hands before I arrived, but that is purely an assumption.

That is one reason I wonder if I should have been more cautious, controlled the pot slightly better and played the river differently. I suppose I was testing the villain but had no real reads so that was probably a mistake so early at the table.

Ed from Edinburgh - EdinFreeMan
 
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Mon Oct 31, 2011, 10:06 PM
(#5)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,479
(Head Trainer)
I agree that your preflop 3b sizing is too small. You should generally 3b higher oop if you 3b at all, and the sizing you chose set up a terrible stack to pot ratio for AK.

As played I agree with ori about inducing from an aggro player when all draws miss, but we have no reads so it's probably better to just bet... villain will show up with a lot of AQ's and AJ's here. He doesn't have many tens in his range. I think the river is a value bet without reads.
 
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Mon Oct 31, 2011, 11:00 PM
(#6)
topthecat's Avatar
Since: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,962
I am going to take a mad stab here and say the villain had a 10, or pocket 8s and feared the 10 or maybe even pocket 10s and for some reason only checked the river bet

TC
 
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Tue Nov 01, 2011, 12:59 AM
(#7)
EdinFreeMan's Avatar
Since: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,540
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLangolier View Post
I agree that your preflop 3b sizing is too small. You should generally 3b higher oop if you 3b at all, and the sizing you chose set up a terrible stack to pot ratio for AK.

As played I agree with ori about inducing from an aggro player when all draws miss, but we have no reads so it's probably better to just bet... villain will show up with a lot of AQ's and AJ's here. He doesn't have many tens in his range. I think the river is a value bet without reads.

Dave, is the larger preflop bet size you and Oriholic recommend preflop mainly to get more folds from weaker holdings or is it designed primarily to set up better SPR? Or both?

I have taken the SPR theory session and will review it. As I was new at the table I was thinking my stack was pretty deep and it was not the first thing that came to mind to think about SPR (in the time available I am lucky if my brain can do the calcs anyhoo).


Thanks for all the advice everybody. If you saw the next hand I posted you probably guessed I did come away with this pot.





Villain mucked Ac 9s.

Without reads, we were probably both assuming that the other player was likely to be worse than ourselves at this micro level, and I happened to take this one. It did make me think that he could just as easily have had A8 or A5 to beat me with 2 prs, though without actually holding a ten or 2 prs I am not sure he should be calling my bet on the river. I have made a note but until I come across this particular villain again the jury is out on them.

Good luck all

Ed from Edinburgh - EdinFreeMan

Last edited by EdinFreeMan; Tue Nov 01, 2011 at 01:03 AM..
 
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Tue Nov 01, 2011, 02:33 AM
(#8)
oriholic's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 751
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by EdinFreeMan View Post
It did make me think that he could just as easily have had A8 or A5 to beat me with 2 prs, though without actually holding a ten or 2 prs I am not sure he should be calling my bet on the river
AK is better than A8 here...Your hand is AATTK, A8 would be AATT8--you have a better kicker That river T counterfeits A8 and A5 which is good for you. The next hand above yours would be T2, T3, T4, T6, T7 which would all be TTTA8.
 
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Tue Nov 01, 2011, 02:58 AM
(#9)
EdinFreeMan's Avatar
Since: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,540
Yes I see that Ori

sorry - just woke up and was partially misremembering the hand - now I realise that I was thinking at the time I played the hand that if the villain is playing that way on the preflop/flop/turn with Ax and hit the x on the flop he would have been ahead with 2 prs until the river card.

After the river pairs the board he would as you say need to have hit trip Ts or better (a full house with AA, AT, 88 or 55) to beat me, but I would be expecting him to call often with A8 (and possibly even A5) having got that far despite other ace hands beating his two pairs, as only A9 and AJ+ have a better kicker if we are both AATTx.

Maybe I should have been less worried about getting the river bet in than I was at the time. I felt like I bet there and got lucky but perhaps he had far fewer ways to beat me than I calculated in the moment.

Thanks for your input

Ed from EdinFreeMan

Last edited by EdinFreeMan; Tue Nov 01, 2011 at 03:12 AM..
 
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Tue Nov 01, 2011, 01:51 PM
(#10)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,479
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by EdinFreeMan View Post
Dave, is the larger preflop bet size you and Oriholic recommend preflop mainly to get more folds from weaker holdings or is it designed primarily to set up better SPR? Or both?
It's for a number of reasons, and a bit of both of the above. A big one is position. Having a positional advantage in an inflated pot with a medium or high spr is a big edge... hand strength is relative, the villain can play some more moderate holdings profitably in position for this small of a 3b size, with this much money behind. So you are 3b'ing larger for value, but also to charge the villain a premium to continue with the positional advantage. Having position is so important in these spots, make him pay a surcharge for the privilege.

If he just folds to the 3B, that's not a bad result, as AK can be difficult to play oop on this depth of money when you get action past the flop. Also, the villain will tend to see flops with hands like small and medium pocket pairs, and fold when they don't hit a set (7/8 times), or peel once and fold to a turn barrel (it will usually depend on the board texture and the villain). By raising a bit extra pre, you take down a bit bigger pot when they fold after the flop.

And of course heading to the flop with a better spr will make your hand easier to play post when you do get action.
 

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