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Did I give too much on the turn ?

 
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Did I give too much on the turn ? - Tue Nov 01, 2011, 06:12 PM
(#1)
Bill Curran's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,507
Did I do anything wrong here ?

PokerStars Game #69883898491: Tournament #462934777, Freeroll Hold'em No Limit - Level II (15/30) - 2011/11/01 19:04:43 ET
Table '462934777 47' 10-max Seat #10 is the button
Seat 1: quique19481 (1920 in chips)
Seat 2: Ayudados (1490 in chips)
Seat 3: ForkHandles1 (1370 in chips)
Seat 4: annett21 (1450 in chips)
Seat 5: nattyrns (2310 in chips)
Seat 6: Jack Frosst (2990 in chips)
Seat 7: HonesTaMenTe (5885 in chips)
Seat 8: tonyuk1001 (2240 in chips)
Seat 9: RaKeT_5678 (5635 in chips)
Seat 10: Bill Curran (2760 in chips)
quique19481: posts small blind 15
Ayudados: posts big blind 30
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Bill Curran [5c 5s]
ForkHandles1: folds
annett21: folds
nattyrns: calls 30
Jack Frosst: calls 30
HonesTaMenTe: folds
tonyuk1001: calls 30
RaKeT_5678: calls 30
Bill Curran: calls 30
quique19481: calls 15
Ayudados: checks
*** FLOP *** [4c 5d 2d]
quique19481: checks
Ayudados: checks
nattyrns: checks
Jack Frosst: bets 90
tonyuk1001: folds
RaKeT_5678: folds
Bill Curran: raises 210 to 300
quique19481: folds
Ayudados: folds
nattyrns: calls 300
Jack Frosst: calls 210
*** TURN *** [4c 5d 2d] [2c]
nattyrns: checks
Jack Frosst: checks
Bill Curran: bets 180
nattyrns: calls 180
Jack Frosst: calls 180
*** RIVER *** [4c 5d 2d 2c] [7s]
nattyrns: checks
Jack Frosst: checks
Bill Curran: bets 300
nattyrns: folds
Jack Frosst: raises 450 to 750
Bill Curran: raises 450 to 1200
Jack Frosst: raises 1280 to 2480 and is all-in
Bill Curran: calls 1050 and is all-in
Uncalled bet (230) returned to Jack Frosst
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Jack Frosst: shows [7h 7c] (a full house, Sevens full of Deuces)
Bill Curran: shows [5c 5s] (a full house, Fives full of Deuces)
Jack Frosst collected 6150 from pot
Bill Curran finished the tournament in 1185th place
rrrosen is connected
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 6150 | Rake 0
Board [4c 5d 2d 2c 7s]
Seat 1: quique19481 (small blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 2: Ayudados (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 3: ForkHandles1 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: annett21 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: nattyrns folded on the River
Seat 6: Jack Frosst showed [7h 7c] and won (6150) with a full house, Sevens full of Deuces
Seat 7: HonesTaMenTe folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: tonyuk1001 folded on the Flop
Seat 9: RaKeT_5678 folded on the Flop
Seat 10: Bill Curran (button) showed [5c 5s] and lost with a full house, Fives full of Deuces

 
Old
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Tue Nov 01, 2011, 06:19 PM
(#2)
oriholic's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 751
BronzeStar
Why is your turn bet so tiny compared to your flop bet? You should be able to just stick your stack in.
 
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Tue Nov 01, 2011, 06:20 PM
(#3)
EdinFreeMan's Avatar
Since: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,540
Hope you don't mind me testing a theory here Bill.


Sorry, this hand was deleted by its owner


If this works, I just cut and paste your text of the hand from the post above into the replayer - I find hands hard to read textually. I'll take a look and get back to you.

Ed from Edinburgh - EdinFreeMan
 
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Tue Nov 01, 2011, 06:36 PM
(#4)
EdinFreeMan's Avatar
Since: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,540
It did work - never tried that before, still getting used to hand replayer quirks.

I am fine with your preflop call & flop bet, though the experts might want to tweak your line. I don't know if I would shove it all in on the turn, but a much more committing sized bet rather than the small one is better for us than this size I think. If this is your $0.10 tourney I suspect either or both opponents with an Ax, other straight or flush draws will come along on the turn. It is a good turn card to keep people involved with many very good drawing hands that you will beat anyway if they hit. (Except bigger pairs drawing to better full house). I would bet 800-1,000 on the turn and hope at least 1 opponent has something good enough to come along.

The river card is just one of those things. I would be getting it all in if I could on the river, (however we played the turn) and hoping to get called by any other hand but that one.

Tough break.

Good luck

Ed from Edinburgh - EdinFreeMan

Last edited by EdinFreeMan; Tue Nov 01, 2011 at 06:38 PM..
 
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Tue Nov 01, 2011, 06:39 PM
(#5)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Curran View Post
Did I do anything wrong here ?

PokerStars Game #69883898491: Tournament #462934777, Freeroll Hold'em No Limit - Level II (15/30) - 2011/11/01 19:04:43 ET
Table '462934777 47' 10-max Seat #10 is the button
Seat 1: quique19481 (1920 in chips)
Seat 2: Ayudados (1490 in chips)
Seat 3: ForkHandles1 (1370 in chips)
Seat 4: annett21 (1450 in chips)
Seat 5: nattyrns (2310 in chips)
Seat 6: Jack Frosst (2990 in chips)
Seat 7: HonesTaMenTe (5885 in chips)
Seat 8: tonyuk1001 (2240 in chips)
Seat 9: RaKeT_5678 (5635 in chips)
Seat 10: Bill Curran (2760 in chips)
quique19481: posts small blind 15
Ayudados: posts big blind 30
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Bill Curran [5c 5s]
ForkHandles1: folds
annett21: folds
nattyrns: calls 30
Jack Frosst: calls 30
HonesTaMenTe: folds
tonyuk1001: calls 30
RaKeT_5678: calls 30
Bill Curran: calls 30
quique19481: calls 15
Ayudados: checks
*** FLOP *** [4c 5d 2d]
quique19481: checks
Ayudados: checks
nattyrns: checks
Jack Frosst: bets 90
tonyuk1001: folds
RaKeT_5678: folds
Bill Curran: raises 210 to 300
quique19481: folds
Ayudados: folds
nattyrns: calls 300
Jack Frosst: calls 210
*** TURN *** [4c 5d 2d] [2c]
nattyrns: checks
Jack Frosst: checks
Bill Curran: bets 180
nattyrns: calls 180
Jack Frosst: calls 180
*** RIVER *** [4c 5d 2d 2c] [7s]
nattyrns: checks
Jack Frosst: checks
Bill Curran: bets 300
nattyrns: folds
Jack Frosst: raises 450 to 750
Bill Curran: raises 450 to 1200
Jack Frosst: raises 1280 to 2480 and is all-in
Bill Curran: calls 1050 and is all-in
Uncalled bet (230) returned to Jack Frosst
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Jack Frosst: shows [7h 7c] (a full house, Sevens full of Deuces)
Bill Curran: shows [5c 5s] (a full house, Fives full of Deuces)
Jack Frosst collected 6150 from pot
Bill Curran finished the tournament in 1185th place
rrrosen is connected
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 6150 | Rake 0
Board [4c 5d 2d 2c 7s]
Seat 1: quique19481 (small blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 2: Ayudados (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 3: ForkHandles1 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: annett21 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: nattyrns folded on the River
Seat 6: Jack Frosst showed [7h 7c] and won (6150) with a full house, Sevens full of Deuces
Seat 7: HonesTaMenTe folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: tonyuk1001 folded on the Flop
Seat 9: RaKeT_5678 folded on the Flop
Seat 10: Bill Curran (button) showed [5c 5s] and lost with a full house, Fives full of Deuces

If you are betting that small on the turn because you believe there is a strong chance that will induce someone to re-raise, then I do not see any problem with it. Realistically though, anyone with a hand that can call the 180 you bet could probably call more than that; a larger bet which gets called can set you up easier to get the rest of your stack in.

As for the river, meh for you.
You got what you wanted, a guy willing to jam back into your boat.

While no flush filled on the river, the 7 did complete a couple of possible straight draws, and the action here could certainly lead someone with a variety of minor over pairs (88/99/TT) to think they are "good" on that river. Since the only 2 hands you are behind are 22 or 77, and since 22 is probably not going to flat your small turn bet when you are at about a 21% investment point on your 2nd barrel, a villain would have had to spike a 2 out-er to beat you. If you are sweating that, then you are playing in fear of "monsters under the bed".

Not a lot you can do here except exactly what you did do Bill...

Good hand, just bad luck.
 
Old
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Tue Nov 01, 2011, 06:43 PM
(#6)
Bill Curran's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,507
Quote:
Originally Posted by oriholic View Post
Why is your turn bet so tiny compared to your flop bet? You should be able to just stick your stack in.

I wanted someone to raise me.

Was hoping one of them had a two or had a made straight, so would raise a smaller bet, then I could shove.

It never occurred to me that someone had a pocket pair, as I would have expected them to have raised earlier in the hand if they had.

But then, I am not a great player, and miss an aweful lot of info.
 
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Tue Nov 01, 2011, 06:55 PM
(#7)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by EdinFreeMan View Post
It did work - never tried that before, still getting used to hand replayer quirks.

I am fine with your preflop call & flop bet, though the experts might want to tweak your line. I don't know if I would shove it all in on the turn, but a much more committing sized bet rather than the small one is better for us than this size I think. If this is your $0.10 tourney I suspect either or both opponents with an Ax, other straight or flush draws will come along on the turn. It is a good turn card to keep people involved with many very good drawing hands that you will beat anyway if they hit. (Except bigger pairs drawing to better full house). I would bet 800-1,000 on the turn and hope at least 1 opponent has something good enough to come along.

The river card is just one of those things. I would be getting it all in if I could on the river, (however we played the turn) and hoping to get called by any other hand but that one.

Tough break.

Good luck

Ed from Edinburgh - EdinFreeMan
I'd think an 800-1000 lead on the turn might be a bit TOO big EdinFreeman.
Even some very "bad" players will tend to not chase draws with only 1 to come for pot, or near pot size bets.

The POSITIVE of your sizing suggestion is that with Bill holding a very strong hand, if that bet gets called in even 1 place, he will have a mega easy chance to get the rest of his chips in on the river for a double up. The negatives (as I see it) of your suggested sizing is that as a "2nd barrel" a near pot bet on the paired board is going to make even big over pairs think twice about calling.

There is a fine balancing act for Bill here, between betting to "invite" a call, but not betting SO SMALL that he cannot get the rest of his chips in on the river very easily. His hand is so strong that he really does not have to worry at all about "denying odds" with his bet size choice; a min bet will be just about enough to do that. So...

I really see nothing wrong with a 500-600 bet though, between 1/2 and 2/3rd pot, which realistically is not far from your suggestion.

A 500 chip bet would leave Bill with 1930, and even if he gets only 1 caller the pot would grow to 2140. That means a river jam would still be less than pot size, and would have a pretty good chance at getting called if the villain had a hand he could call 2 barrels on.
 
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Tue Nov 01, 2011, 07:14 PM
(#8)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,819
(Super-Moderator)
BronzeStar
I agree with making a larger turn bet. I'd make at least a 300, to keep it equal or more than the flop bet, if not 500-600.
 
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Tue Nov 01, 2011, 07:27 PM
(#9)
Bill Curran's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,507
@EdinFreeMan

This was a 10th anniversary freeroll

 
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Tue Nov 01, 2011, 07:35 PM
(#10)
EdinFreeMan's Avatar
Since: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,540
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Curran View Post
@EdinFreeMan

This was a 10th anniversary freeroll



I played one of those and it was VERY loose - I think you can play one every day and they have 10 tickets from large field so expect lots of all ins and loose calls. I can't find the promo details from the lobby though.

Good luck

Ed from Edinburgh - EdinFreeMan
 
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Tue Nov 01, 2011, 10:14 PM
(#11)
oriholic's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 751
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Curran View Post
Was hoping one of them had a two or had a made straight, so would raise a smaller bet, then I could shove.
But how many 2s or made straights are really in their ranges? A3, 36, A2, 22...anything else? How likely is someone to have any of that? How does someone get to the turn after a flop raise with a 2 in their hand besides 22? You're really hoping to be against 44 or maybe a slow-played overpair, or a big combo draw where people are usually happy to commit.

I think it makes more sense to bet big because no one is going to believe you have a 2 after the flop raise. Also, earlier I misread your stack...thought you had 1760, not 2760. I think a bet to around 700 on the turn is a good size. It's a solid value bet, and it's also a large enough portion of the effective stack size that it should put players to a commit or split decision.

Last edited by oriholic; Tue Nov 01, 2011 at 10:17 PM..
 
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Tue Nov 01, 2011, 11:06 PM
(#12)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,510
(Head Trainer)
I agree with the others, preflop is good, flop is good, turn bet is way too small.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Curran View Post
I wanted someone to raise me.

Was hoping one of them had a two or had a made straight, so would raise a smaller bet, then I could shove.
They checked to you, unlikely someone is looking to check-raise, and if they ARE looking to check-raise they're expecting a bigger bet anyway. It's not necessary though, ideally you'd like to get stacks in by the river, but the money is easily shallow enough to do this. Anyone with a 2 or a straight will at least call a bigger bet, you don't need to bet tiny and hope they raise. If they raise a bigger bet all the money is in, and if they just call, all the money will go in on the river.
 

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