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Is this a leak?

 
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Is this a leak? - Mon Nov 07, 2011, 12:27 PM
(#1)
BandShooter's Avatar
Since: Jun 2011
Posts: 111
Ok so, this is early in a 20FPP game (Been playing A LOT of these lately, trying to build a BR.) Maybe 15 hands in this is what I know. The player to my left is in EVERY hand. The only flop he hasn't seen yet is one where he limped in and someone else shoved. 3 Players to his Left, has ben in almost half the hands, but this is the first time he's shoved.

So, should I have just Thrown these away after the shove, or did I still make the right play?

 
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Mon Nov 07, 2011, 12:50 PM
(#2)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,814
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I'd have definitely played the hand, but here's what I'd have done.
I like the open raise, but since it's early, would raise a bit more than the 2.5X. I normally try to raise more until it hits the 100/200 blind level.

When the raise is called by the player to your left, then shoved on by the opp with AK, I'd have re-shoved right then.... to try and isolate one opponent, or if the 3rd wants to come along into the pot, I'd make them pay the max before seeing the flop. I wouldn't want the 3rd opp to be able to see that they hit a part of the flop, before committing their other chips.
 
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Mon Nov 07, 2011, 01:08 PM
(#3)
oriholic's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 751
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No, not folding queens there. When the short stack shoves you need to reshove.
 
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Mon Nov 07, 2011, 01:51 PM
(#4)
EdinFreeMan's Avatar
Since: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,540
The 20FPP tourneys have such a fast structure, 5 min blind levels and ruthless blind increases, that any chance to double up or better with a premium hand early on is exactly what you want.

I like the raise, I am not sure the exact size makes much difference in these at this stage. To finesse a 2.22/2.5x/3x/3.5x or whatever, because you will so often get reraised fairly loose, by smaller pairs and weak aces, allowing you to shove, or you will be shoved over by hands like 99+and AT- AK allowing you to call. It is not as if you are thinking about going away preflop when you are reraised.

A lot of loose shoving and calling goes on in these, so it is also often impossible to isolate opponents with anything other than a preflop shove when you are first to act, which risks getting no action. I am happiest here to get it all in preflop, starting with a fairly standard raise as you did, and happy to be racing AK regularly with QQ.

As you dont get it all in, despite the obvious flush danger, I am still continuing getting those chips in on this board, post flop.

Good luck

Ed from Edinburgh - EdinFreeMan

Last edited by EdinFreeMan; Mon Nov 07, 2011 at 01:56 PM..
 
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Mon Nov 07, 2011, 02:44 PM
(#5)
Jimmy Trap's Avatar
Since: Dec 2009
Posts: 26
If you have to call as much as 1/3rd of your stack it is a fold or shove situation. I would only consider folding Queens in this structure if I had raised utg and assuming ozzi hadn't been making moves on the button. Obviously from what you know you can't ever give wawi much credit for a hand. Nonetheless, QQ is way too vulnerable 3 way and even though wawi was probably calling anyway, I'd feel a lot better knowing I had at least given him a chance to fold.
 
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Mon Nov 07, 2011, 04:03 PM
(#6)
BandShooter's Avatar
Since: Jun 2011
Posts: 111
Ok, so basicaly the overall consensus is, the raise was right (give or take a slight disagreement on size,) but I should have reshoved preflop, Giving me a chance to save chips if Wawi folds, or ending up in the same position if he calls.

Ok. Got. Thanks all. This stuff really helps.

Last edited by BandShooter; Mon Nov 07, 2011 at 04:10 PM..
 
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Mon Nov 07, 2011, 04:39 PM
(#7)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by BandShooter View Post
Ok so, this is early in a 20FPP game (Been playing A LOT of these lately, trying to build a BR.) Maybe 15 hands in this is what I know. The player to my left is in EVERY hand. The only flop he hasn't seen yet is one where he limped in and someone else shoved. 3 Players to his Left, has ben in almost half the hands, but this is the first time he's shoved.

So, should I have just Thrown these away after the shove, or did I still make the right play?

Versus 1 player who has played literally a 100% (random) range of hands for at least some voluntary entry, and against someone who has played almost a 50% entry range, No I am never folding QQ on a 33BB start stack.

As for the guy who jammed, yes it might be a bit troublng that he has come along so often but this is the first jam; he COULD have AA here.
It doesn't change a thing in my thinking though, and I am snap calling his range with QQ. Why?

QQ is very STRONG.

I am ahead of all but 2 hands, and there is only 1 more hand (AKs = AKo for my purposes really) that is a "race" for me.
Even if I "credit" the shover for a "big hand", his very loose start standards has to make me think that what HE views as a "big hand" differs widely from what I view as a "big hand".

With a 50% VPiP, even if I credit him with a hand in the top 10% of his total range, he is still probably jamming a 5% hand range.
My QQ is strong enough to have about 57.6% equity against even this top end 5% jam range.

With hands like JJ/TT/99/AQs/AJs/KQs within that 5% jam range, all of which I am a BIG favorite over, and only hands like AA/KK that are a big favorite over me in that range, Combinatronically I like my chances for being a 72%+ favorite often enough to be perfectly willing to call and risk seeing a "race" or a hand which dominates me when I call.

If he wakes up with AA/KK, or if he out races me with AK, so be it. At least my decision was still a good one, and your's here was too...

BUT...

One thing I'd like to note:

When the 915 stack does jam, you really REALLY want to do all you can to get the guy who called your open raise to get his chips in too.
When that guy flats off 10% of his chips vs you, his "bad" playing tendencies (loose/passive calling station) say that he may well not fold if you do jam.
The time he limp/folded to a jam was when he LIMPED; here he has called a raise. To the true calling station, that makes all the difference in the world, see?

Since that guy is SO WIDE, you gotta figure you are a lock to have great equity versus him.
so by getting him to commit pre flop means you build a side pot, and even if you LOSE the main pot to the jammer, you should re-coup a lot of that loss from the side pot most of the time.

The way you played it here, you did get him all in on the flop, when you had an over pair, but there were some "scare cards" which might have come for you which may have made you "reluctant" to do that. I like the fact you had the "heart" to go ahead and commit yourself to see if you could get that K6's stack in, even tho the board DID have 3 spades and you had none, but I really think you could have gotten him to put them in pre-flop, when you have to figure yourself an even BIGGER Favorit than on a flop like the one you saw...see?

But overall, very well played, just bad luck!

Last edited by JDean; Mon Nov 07, 2011 at 04:43 PM..
 

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