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Limit Hand, 2c4c. dealt AK, missed flop

 
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Limit Hand, 2c4c. dealt AK, missed flop - Mon Nov 07, 2011, 06:05 PM
(#1)
Tomcrockpot's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 140
I'm pretty sure I played this wrong on the turn and river, my read on villain is as a loose player that will call / bet all the way with an underpair, so trying to bluff is a waste of time.. but should I have done anything else different?

Sorry, this hand was deleted by its owner

Last edited by Tomcrockpot; Mon Nov 07, 2011 at 06:08 PM.. Reason: thoughts
 
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Mon Nov 07, 2011, 06:27 PM
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oriholic's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 751
BronzeStar
Check preflop. Keep the pot smaller, as you're never getting a fold and you don't really want to play AKo 5-way out of position. Raise here is pointless.

I'm probably letting this go on the flop. Being out of position sucks. Sure, you usually have outs, but how big a pot do you think you're gonna win if you hit? Do you really think you're gonna get in a raise war when a K flops with a worse hand? Check/call and check/raise are options though. Also, look at the guy's stack. Check/call on the turn is silly. Can't really lead on a 2 either. You can check/raise/call or just check/fold.

River bet/fold is awful. Check/call if you think he'll have 89, 64, KJ here, but that's super unlikely given the multi-way pot. Plus, per your read, he's never folding anything better. If you bet you should be prepared to call as you're getting 9 to 1 odds, and only need to be right 10% of the time. I'd call here 100% of the time given the pot size, the tiny amount to call and the info I can get from calling. Yeah, I'm probably beat about 90% of the time, but I can learn what this guy was playing making this call slightly future +EV in my eyes.
 
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Mon Nov 07, 2011, 06:38 PM
(#3)
Tomcrockpot's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 140
cheers, appreciate your time
 
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Mon Nov 07, 2011, 08:01 PM
(#4)
Puciek's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 771
Oh the hell? You are AHEAD pf so you RAISE it, you do want to start building a pot, it is a very ev+ move as you got the best hand right now. I mean honestly, why you don't want to play AK against 4 worse hands OTF? What is your logic behind that? Or do you consider building the pot as "pointless" ?
OTF just check/fold it. if you get a free turn and hit, jam the bet/raise button, otherwsie check/fold. Don't get fancy with whatever in 0.02/0.04 fl, you got it - you jam the bet/raise button, you don't - you fold.
 
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Mon Nov 07, 2011, 08:14 PM
(#5)
Deleted user
Lol..They let you back in the forum!!

Unreal,must be asleep at the wheel.
 
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Mon Nov 07, 2011, 08:17 PM
(#6)
Puciek's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 771
As offtopic, they never pushed me away from them, just decided not to come by here. Today I decided to pop by and see if any of the vets "moved on"
 
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Tue Nov 08, 2011, 01:52 AM
(#7)
oriholic's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 751
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You're probably right Puciek. I'm not a limit player and most of the time raising there in NL is pointless as you're building a big pot (with a bad SPR) and will be out of position and against a bunch of players with a hand that is mainly a top pair top kicker type hand.
 
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Tue Nov 08, 2011, 03:45 AM
(#8)
Puciek's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 771
Quote:
Originally Posted by oriholic View Post
You're probably right Puciek. I'm not a limit player and most of the time raising there in NL is pointless as you're building a big pot (with a bad SPR) and will be out of position and against a bunch of players with a hand that is mainly a top pair top kicker type hand.
That is true for NL where implied odds are much more important than actual odds hence calling here is "ok" (but i still would not do it and raise strong just to chase at least 2 people out and have a betting lead OTF).
In micro-micro FL tp/tk is a MONSTER, and i mean it.. You should play bout 20k hands of 0.02/0.04 and you will see :p
 
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Tue Nov 08, 2011, 01:57 PM
(#9)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oriholic View Post
Check preflop. Keep the pot smaller, as you're never getting a fold and you don't really want to play AKo 5-way out of position. Raise here is pointless.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Puciek View Post
Oh the hell? You are AHEAD pf so you RAISE it, you do want to start building a pot, it is a very ev+ move as you got the best hand right now. I mean honestly, why you don't want to play AK against 4 worse hands OTF? What is your logic behind that? Or do you consider building the pot as "pointless" ?
OTF just check/fold it. if you get a free turn and hit, jam the bet/raise button, otherwsie check/fold. Don't get fancy with whatever in 0.02/0.04 fl, you got it - you jam the bet/raise button, you don't - you fold.
Realistically, in FLHE, both these lines have validity...

Checking the option pre-flop in the multi-way pot in FLHE with this sort of hand, when a raise pre will be VERY un-likely to "thin the herd", is not a bad thought at all.

(If I'm on the BTN or CO, I will say I am almost always raising here, as the chance then exists that some one makes it 3 bets, and that folds out some of the limpers at least...in the blind though, when everyone who is going to limp has already put 1 bet in, uh uh, I'm not raising AS often because they all may have to call jsut 1 bet to keep going; altho I will still raise some of the time at least )

2/3rd of the time you'll miss the flop, and when you do you will be seeing a "bloated" pot odds situation which may all but "force" you to keep putting more in on just an over card draw (which may or may not be good). Granted, 4 way calls ahead of your blind may mean a good bit of the time (especially at 2c/4c) you will see EVERYONE call a lead bet, and that too would all but "force" an over card draw call, and checking the option means you stand to win LESS if you do spike the turn.

But if the table may well show folds to a lead bet on the flop, thus leaving you with just 5 to 1 here to draw at your 12.7% shot to spike the turn top/top, seeking to possibly LOOSE LESS by checking the option is not terrible at all.

BUT...

Puciek is very correct in stating that AKo tends to be the "best" hand here quite a bit of the time. If you hold the best hand, even if that hand is not "made" building the pot NOW can be a good idea too. If you DO spike the flop, you definately want the pot bigger. But in fixed limit betting, growing the pot early on can actually serve to keep a wider RANGE of draws around, and that entails a wider chance you will LOSE; I'm not saying you do not want to be betting a top/top hit in "fear" of multi-way pots, but you WILL tend to lose more if you approach a top/top hand as an "insta-bet/insta-raise to cap" if you've built the pot early in FLHE.

So I cannot say either of these pre-flop thoughts are "wrong", and choosing which one you follow is largely a matter of your personal view on variance effects and also on what the TABLE is likely to do.

Both these can be "right".

Last edited by JDean; Tue Nov 08, 2011 at 02:00 PM..
 
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Tue Nov 08, 2011, 02:09 PM
(#10)
Puciek's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 771
Thining the herd is not your goal, not in loosest possible game outside of freeroll. EV of raisin preflop is very clear and about +10%. All checking does is reduce your swings (and reduces your reward).
And even on overcards draw, how do you look? You doublet the pot, you got the initative so lets say you keep on betting and get only calls - this is STILL PROFITABLE FOR YOU because of the pot you built earlier. And if you draw with proper odds - your EV line (and of course profit) goes up. So "having to pay with 2 overs" is not bad thing at all - it is good for you especially if you can keep the lead.

And yea sure, keeping pot small will chase out draws, especially when they will have almost perfect odds to draw anyway, even if you don't "bloat the pot". You wanna show me the math to support that claim? This is not no limit, you can't do anything about draws here. Yea, you will lose more BUT you will also WIN more (and in the end you will win more often than you lose because most of the time they will have inferior hand, not even a draw).
 
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Wed Nov 09, 2011, 01:39 AM
(#11)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
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Sometimes, lowering your swings is reason enough.

Is it reason enough to ALWAYS check the option, no it isn't. I never claimed it was.

But in this spot there is more than 1 way to look at what you want to accomplish here.
 

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