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Live NLHE 1/2$ deep, manuvering with set on very wet board aginat multiple vilians

 
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Live NLHE 1/2$ deep, manuvering with set on very wet board aginat multiple vilians - Mon Nov 07, 2011, 08:27 PM
(#1)
Puciek's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 771
Now this is a fun hand i just plaid in local casino. Game in question is 1/2$ NLHE, pretty deepstacked by now with everyone having at least 800$ behind them. Game is generally very loose but pretty passive preflop.

CU got 1100$
BU(hero) with about 800$
SB with about 750$
BB with 690$

CU was playing very tight, with a lot of limp/raise preflop. HERO is playing his usual loose/agressive game. SB is a professional player who drops by here to have some fun with friends, he is playing loose/aggro today. BB is a solid, tight player.

Action starts with couple of limps to HERO who raises it up to 12$ with 77, SB raises it to 30$, BB folds and MP1 call, so does hero.
Flop comes 6d7d8d, and is checked to HERO who checks it.
Turn comes 9d, and is checked to CU who bets 60$. Hero calls, SB and BB fold.
River comes 8s, CU bets 150$, Hero ??

Fold is out of the question obviously, but can we actually raise for value here? If we do, how much would this bet be, and what are we extracting value from? What if he decides to push our bet all-in, do we call?
 
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Tue Nov 08, 2011, 10:37 AM
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Well, there are probably 5 hands that would call a value raise (66, 88, 99, J10, A8s). If the opp was playing tight, then the J 10 might be out of that range, along with the A8... leaving the 3 pocket pairs.

If the opp was playing looser, then I would value raise about 1/2 pot, since there would be a better chance the opp would have A8 or J10. I'd also be ready to call a re-raise. If you're not going to call a re-raise, then flat it.
With a tight opp, I'd put them more on a pkt pair that hit a part of it (and if so, you only beat 1 of the 3)... so I'd flat the $150. They could have an overpair too... but I'd think they'd re-raise pre.
 
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Tue Nov 08, 2011, 11:04 AM
(#3)
mtnestegg's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,336
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWK24 View Post
Well, there are probably 5 hands that would call a value raise (66, 88, 99, J10, A8s). If the opp was playing tight, then the J 10 might be out of that range, along with the A8... leaving the 3 pocket pairs.

If the opp was playing looser, then I would value raise about 1/2 pot, since there would be a better chance the opp would have A8 or J10. I'd also be ready to call a re-raise. If you're not going to call a re-raise, then flat it.
With a tight opp, I'd put them more on a pkt pair that hit a part of it (and if so, you only beat 1 of the 3)... so I'd flat the $150. They could have an overpair too... but I'd think they'd re-raise pre.
I would add 10s to his preflop call range,and with th.limp raise in front, i'd also add AKo or s and maybe AQs, so I think he has the nut flush, but could even have the str8flush with a four liner to it on the board. And with the other pairs that have you licked, I would have to reluctantly just call the river, because I think the only hand your beating and would call a raise is the nut flush.
 
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Tue Nov 08, 2011, 11:06 AM
(#4)
Puciek's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 771
You are aware that 88 beats me with quads at this point, right?
I tried to break down your supposed "calling range" multiple times but every time it was redundant and leads into a simple point - there is no reason to bet them OTT and OTR as they are mere bluff-catchers at this point (with exception of 99 which gets value from lower full houses).

Idea that you can raise OTR and then be happy about calling is just appalling. What would raise you there that you beat? Is there even a single hand that does that? He won't do that without 88 or Td or 5d. which beats the crap out of you (maybe, just maybe with 99, most likely he would bluff-catch with it at this point anyway as betting here is such strong move).

I don't get your idea of calling with A8 here whatsoever, what on earth are you beating? Overpair (lol) ?
 
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Tue Nov 08, 2011, 11:14 AM
(#5)
mtnestegg's Avatar
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Agreed ..I dont see a tight player ever calling a limp/3bet with 10/J or A8
 
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Tue Nov 08, 2011, 11:17 AM
(#6)
Puciek's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtnestegg View Post
Agreed ..I dont see a tight player ever calling a limp/3bet with 10/J or A8
This is live, not online so it is within his range. Anyhow playing it OTR is ridiculous unless its TdJd
 
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Tue Nov 08, 2011, 11:22 AM
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good point with the flush. I missed seeing it. With that being the case, AK, AQ, maybe even AJ of diamonds definitely go into their range.
 
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Tue Nov 08, 2011, 11:24 AM
(#8)
Puciek's Avatar
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Posts: 771
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWK24 View Post
good point with the flush. I missed seeing it. With that being the case, AK, AQ, maybe even AJ of diamonds definitely go into their range.
Which still doesn't touch the original problem in any meaningful way.
 
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Tue Nov 08, 2011, 11:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Puciek View Post
Which still doesn't touch the original problem in any meaningful way.
It puts more hands into their range that would call a value raise from you, that you are ahead of... making me more opt to want to do it.

I'd put in a value raise of about 1/2 pot.
 
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Tue Nov 08, 2011, 11:28 AM
(#10)
mtnestegg's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
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My point was merely there are too many hands that beat you possible to do anything but call.. Sad but true.
 
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Tue Nov 08, 2011, 11:30 AM
(#11)
Puciek's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 771
Well a judge seems to disagree, maybe he cares to explain how does one extract value OTR here from say, AJ
 
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Tue Nov 08, 2011, 11:33 AM
(#12)
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AK, AQ, AJ of diamonds has an A high flush... you've got a full house and an A high flush should be calling a value raise.
 
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Tue Nov 08, 2011, 11:35 AM
(#13)
Puciek's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 771
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWK24 View Post
AK, AQ, AJ of diamonds has an A high flush... you've got a full house and an A high flush should be calling a value raise.
Why? What does it beat that raises him OTR? The hell i am typing

Last edited by Puciek; Tue Nov 08, 2011 at 11:40 AM..
 
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Tue Nov 08, 2011, 11:40 AM
(#14)
mtnestegg's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,336
Quote:
Originally Posted by Puciek View Post
Why? What does it beat that raises him OTR? And it has AJ high flush, not just A high flush, so for example AQd beats him.
Now you have me cornfused.... Only 1 Ad
 
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Tue Nov 08, 2011, 11:40 AM
(#15)
Puciek's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 771
Already fixed that, my merits stands though, what the hell he beats
 
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Tue Nov 08, 2011, 12:40 PM
(#16)
oriholic's Avatar
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Really interesting. He's got like 99 or 88 here so often. 66 and some flushes are also possible. is definitely in his range. Probably doesn't limp/call a 3-bet with JTs even this deep. Would he play AQ or AK (suited or off) like this preflop? Looks pretty hard for him to have a big flush with that preflop line. I don't have live experience. Can't fold, but the only hand you can really get value from with a raise is 66 (if that). Seems nitty but I think we have to just call here. That is unless he likes to try and catch river bluffs, particularly with our LAG image. Then he might do it with a hand like because that blocks a lot of ways you'd hold a , but probably not, since we've been so passive this hand. If we raise and he 3-bets we have to fold. His range is super narrow and I doubt he's ever 3-bet bluffing the river. (this is $1/$2, not $20/40)

I think we just call and sigh when he turns over 99 or
 
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Tue Nov 08, 2011, 12:51 PM
(#17)
mtnestegg's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,336
I've seen quite a few "tight" players limp call w/ AK,AQ as they want to see a flop b4 committing a lot of chips,and with him not just limp calling, but limp/3bet calling pre, the big aces have to be in there (his range) but i'm still just calling.
 
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Tue Nov 08, 2011, 02:18 PM
(#18)
Puciek's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 771
Quote:
Originally Posted by oriholic View Post
Really interesting. He's got like 99 or 88 here so often. 66 and some flushes are also possible. is definitely in his range. Probably doesn't limp/call a 3-bet with JTs even this deep. Would he play AQ or AK (suited or off) like this preflop? Looks pretty hard for him to have a big flush with that preflop line. I don't have live experience. Can't fold, but the only hand you can really get value from with a raise is 66 (if that). Seems nitty but I think we have to just call here. That is unless he likes to try and catch river bluffs, particularly with our LAG image. Then he might do it with a hand like because that blocks a lot of ways you'd hold a , but probably not, since we've been so passive this hand. If we raise and he 3-bets we have to fold. His range is super narrow and I doubt he's ever 3-bet bluffing the river. (this is $1/$2, not $20/40)

I think we just call and sigh when he turns over 99 or
Essentially a live "tight" player is the one who will only play merit hands (suited connectors of 45+ for example), most people in this kind of games often play trash like K4o and so on and have vpip of 40%, so someone playing merit (15%) is tight. So stuff like TJ is deffo in his range.

I wonder how no one of you noticed my bad call on the turn and questioned it :P
 
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Tue Nov 08, 2011, 02:41 PM
(#19)
JWK24's Avatar
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against an opp at 19.2% (pairs, 45s+, etc). 77 on the turn has 48.23% equity from pokerstove.

You only put in $60 to a pot of $150 (40%).
 
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Tue Nov 08, 2011, 02:50 PM
(#20)
oriholic's Avatar
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Limping I figured, as well as limp-calling a raise--wasn't sure about a 3-bet though, thanks.

Calling on the turn doesn't seem bad at first. You have outs against a flush and you are getting decent odds. The issue comes on the river...what river card can come that really makes you feel great about raising? 7 obviously, maybe a 9? Can't really raise most of your full houses for value or as a bluff.

I understand the problem here. You can't raise the turn either. But folding seems way too weak with position and a full house draw. He could just be stabbing at it since the flop got checked around. Really hard not to peel the turn and hope you get in a nice bet with your boat or that the river goes check/check.
 

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