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My Bad...This still bites.

 
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My Bad...This still bites. - Tue Nov 08, 2011, 08:40 PM
(#1)
Stakehorse75's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 865
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Thought I was home free with 17 to payout, and a huge fish on the line, then Wham!!!! Joker Stars deals a verry cruel twist of fate to me again.....getting sick of this crap.

 
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Tue Nov 08, 2011, 08:50 PM
(#2)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
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It happens.

Only thing I can say is that if you are limping 99 with a 17BB stack, you kinda have to be ready on your stack to put the rest in here or fold to a raise. Once you get raised, you probably need to be thinking about an all in or fold.

Same goes for the villain here with his KQo.

So realisticlly, even if you play this without waiting for a flop to get 'em in, you probably are seeing the same result OR you are going to be making a mistake in folding off 1/3rd of your stack after calling the raise.

No matter what, it boils down to a cooler. You cannot control those, so no need worrying about them.
 
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Wed Nov 09, 2011, 08:28 AM
(#3)
Puciek's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 771
Horrible pref, you either raise with 99 utg or fold them (and this goes for any hand in utg really, DO NOT EVER LIMP from that spot unless there are very special circumstances).
 
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Wed Nov 09, 2011, 03:13 PM
(#4)
Stakehorse75's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 865
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F this, 17 to $$ and I limped with 99, damn right, with low stack, you want me to shove with a pair that isn't likely to hold much past preflop, ergo the limp, ergo hitting unless opp. is holding 44, I have nuts now,

I've had 4 very good players I play with on a regular basis posting things on my fb page all day about this being the worst suckout they've seen.
 
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Wed Nov 09, 2011, 03:36 PM
(#5)
mtnestegg's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,336
you did get coolered. I dont mind the limp, but CALLING that raise pre I think was a big leak on your stack size.. Rejam or fold imo

Last edited by mtnestegg; Wed Nov 09, 2011 at 03:39 PM.. Reason: Typed without thinking lol
 
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Wed Nov 09, 2011, 07:19 PM
(#6)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stakehorse75 View Post
F this, 17 to $$ and I limped with 99, damn right, with low stack, you want me to shove with a pair that isn't likely to hold much past preflop, ergo the limp, ergo hitting unless opp. is holding 44, I have nuts now,

I've had 4 very good players I play with on a regular basis posting things on my fb page all day about this being the worst suckout they've seen.

17BB means you do still have room to limp/fold, but tbh, that is playing pretty weakly.
If you table is ALLOWING oop set mining limps a lot, then your limp can have justification.

My point stands though: when you limp, and then get RAISED, your FLAT of that raise was NOT a good play. You needed to decide right there whether you were putting them all in, or whether you were FOLDING.

The fact your limp/call "worked" this time, and you flopped a boat, does NOT lend reason to what was a bad decision to CALL OFF 1/3rd of your stack with a hand which will see at least 1 overcard on the flop about 81% of the time.

By the way, that 81% of the time is when you will see at least 1 over card AND YOU WILL NOT HAVE A SET!

So instead of be-moaning your "fate" on the river, and seeking re-assurance that you are the "un-luckiest poker player in the world", you may want to consider looking at the implications of your decision here for the times you do NOT flop the best of it...

1) You are CALLING OFF about 1/3rd of your stack.
Calling leaves you only 1 way to win: holding the best hand.
Betting or raising leaves you 2 ways to win: holidng the best hand, OR making a BETTER hand (but one still vulnerable) FOLD.

2) You are doing so OUT OF POSITION.
This means you will have no information upon which to base your flop decision before you must make it.

3) The high chance of at least 1 over card flopping represents a huge THREAT to you.
This is largely true because you are OOP, and will lack information on what your opponent might do behind you. Checking for "relative position" has little benefit for you, since the villain may well C-Bet simply BECAUSE you check. So you gain nothing in the way of effective information either by lead betting or checking.

All this adds up to mean that you need to END your decisions pre-flop, BEFORE you call off 1/3rd of your stack. You can end your decisions by either FOLDING just 1/17th of your stack, OR by RAISING ALL IN after you are raised.

There is no way around, and doing anything else is not good poker, no matter what comes on the flop.
 
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Wed Nov 09, 2011, 10:45 PM
(#7)
Stakehorse75's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 865
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17BB means you do still have room to limp/fold, but tbh, that is playing pretty weakly.
If you table is ALLOWING oop set mining limps a lot, then your limp can have justification.

Yes, and with 17 left to ITM, it's a fair spot to limp with a med PP to see flop, overcard comes, I'm out, but it didn't, I've flopped a freaking boat, and yes I slow played it, damn right, when someone puts in 1200 pre, you know what's coming next, the C-bet, and I waited for it and should have gotten paid out for it barring the guy having 44 which was completely possible, although not probable.

Don't think I don't respect you JDean, because I do. I just think they need less people doing these, so it's more uniformed. Too many evaluators makes for different players playing these hands differently, and their views are different giving players different ideas on how they are to be played.

You know, I've showed getting my money in on just about every spot in here, seems like its always the wrong place, doesn't matter where I put in.
I make calls based on my notes, and when someone has went all in 12 hands out of the 12 hands he didn't sit out, I make a judgement call on how much actual strength their holdings are, and you damn right, when I make a good call, and then Joker Stars lends it's twist of fate like this hand, I figure I deserve a little leeway. It's hands like this that have put me out on or near the bubble in 8 my last 10 tourneys. No friggin wonder my BR is in very bad shape lately.

Last edited by Stakehorse75; Wed Nov 09, 2011 at 11:09 PM..
 
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Thu Nov 10, 2011, 07:24 AM
(#8)
mtnestegg's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,336
You keep saying you limped...YOU DID NOT. You TRIED to limp,and would have got 16/1( just enough) but then CALLED off 1/3 your stack to... What... Set mine (as per your words) with 2/1 implied.... Ask your respected poker friends if they think TAHT'S good (long term winning) poker. Sorry, I just dont.

Last edited by mtnestegg; Thu Nov 10, 2011 at 07:36 AM..
 
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Thu Nov 10, 2011, 04:56 PM
(#9)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtnestegg View Post
You keep saying you limped...YOU DID NOT. You TRIED to limp,and would have got 16/1( just enough) but then CALLED off 1/3 your stack to... What... Set mine (as per your words) with 2/1 implied.... Ask your respected poker friends if they think TAHT'S good (long term winning) poker. Sorry, I just dont.
BINGO!

The entire "jist" of my posting here Stakehorse is exactly what mtnestegg has put up...

There is a HUGE difference between limping to set mine, and CALLING 1/3rd YOUR STACK to set mine.

In this spot, you limped, then you CALLED A RAISE!

If you had moved all in pre flop rather than called, I would have just called this a bad beat. Personally, I think hands like that are better off in the bad beat forum, but you COULD have had a question as to whether moving all in pre flop was "right". If that were the case my answer would have been some thing like this:

You limped 99 UTG. While not optimal on your stack size (17BB usually means you should be making only aggressive pot entries) there can be situations where this is preferable.

When you got raised, your chance of playing a "cheap" set mining spot went out the window. You cannot call off 1/3rd of your stack and then fold the flop without crippling your chances of making it ITM greatly. You CAN fold 1BB now though, and not really hurt your chances t make it ITM with 16BB rather than 17BB. this means you are in a jam or fold spot.

You elect to jam.

As long as you are not facing an UBER TIGHT raise range by this villain, you can expect to be in a race often enough to make this shove fine.

Your stack is short enough at 17BB to WANT to take races now for stacks (if you can get 'em), whereas on deeper money situations (say 30BB+), you may not really like racing for stacks.

You got "gin" on the flop, and you've done everything you could to make sure your opponent pays maximum price. BUT...

He catches mega lucky to get running Qs and a better boat.

This is really just bad luck, and while you can control your decisions, you cannot control luck.

It happens.


If you had jammed pre-flop, and entered this hand without any question, or with jsut a "complaint" about bad luck, I'd have answered like this:

Nothing wrong here, this is just bad luck, and belongs in the bad beat forum.

But when you post the hand you post, and when I see what I feel is a "mistake", I am going to mention that mistake.

I will mention that mistake whether you've asked a question about it or not, because this is the HAND ANALYSIS FORUM.

If you do not want to hear about things you might have done wrong in the hand, and if you are just looking for "sympathy" for your bad luck...well, poker players are notoriously un-sympathetic about beats, since we all have taken 'em!

Last edited by JDean; Thu Nov 10, 2011 at 05:32 PM..
 
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Fri Nov 11, 2011, 12:56 AM
(#10)
Stakehorse75's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 865
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Maybe you 2 didn't read the title of this.

"My Bad, but this still bites..., as in my bad preflop, but wtf????

I didn't really mean to have this evaluated in the 1st place. I forgot when I posted this that when you posted it to the forum it auto goes to hand analysis.

I originally posted this to complain about the programming that spewed the hand originally.

And this is another Joker Stars special!

btw.... I stopped posting hands to get evaluated here a while ago, . If I want feedback, I ask a pro now instead of the robot factory, & you never know who's going to be doing it, or if someones opinions are getting in the way of what they do. I straight-shoot everyone, and if I don't like them, I make it known to them, unless they are on the "edge" which since 1 player left, I have none.

Respectfully
Stake

Last edited by Stakehorse75; Fri Nov 11, 2011 at 01:16 AM..
 
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Fri Nov 11, 2011, 05:48 AM
(#11)
Schnech's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 104
Just one word: quit!

If you think online poker is raked at any point, where is your point to play online? Go into a real casino and play there.

That's all I can say. Just don't play on Pokerstars or any other network!
 
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Fri Nov 11, 2011, 06:55 AM
(#12)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schnech View Post
Just one word: quit!

If you think online poker is raked at any point, where is your point to play online? Go into a real casino and play there.

That's all I can say. Just don't play on Pokerstars or any other network!
I've seen some pretty "hinky" things happen live too, and not just suspicious actions by the players (by the dealers and floor people too).

The truth is, any poker player looking to blame "bad luck" for his losses, or any other external factors, can probably find plenty of things that APPEAR to support that thinking.

...whether or not those things are the REAL cause for losing is another matter entirely.
 
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Fri Nov 11, 2011, 07:46 AM
(#13)
Schnech's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDean View Post
I've seen some pretty "hinky" things happen live too, and not just suspicious actions by the players (by the dealers and floor people too).

The truth is, any poker player looking to blame "bad luck" for his losses, or any other external factors, can probably find plenty of things that APPEAR to support that thinking.

...whether or not those things are the REAL cause for losing is another matter entirely.
Signed.
 
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Fri Nov 11, 2011, 08:55 AM
(#14)
mtnestegg's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,336
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stakehorse75 View Post


I originally posted this to complain about the programming that spewed the hand originally.

And this is another Joker Stars special!



Respectfully
Stake
OHHHHHH!!.... Its the programing.....that explains it! Thnx for the clarification..<<< (tin foil hat firmly in place!!) Thnx!
 
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Sat Nov 12, 2011, 12:37 AM
(#15)
joy7108's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,286
And of course "Jokerstars" is the only online site that has bad beats - on the other sites the best hand always holds up. Kind of makes you wonder why they bother to deal the flop, turn and river.

 
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Wed Nov 16, 2011, 01:30 AM
(#16)
Stakehorse75's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 865
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtnestegg View Post
OHHHHHH!!.... Its the programing.....that explains it! Thnx for the clarification..<<< (tin foil hat firmly in place!!) Thnx!

No, thank you for the clarification. I'll stay out of the forum, don't need this. I can focus better just by using the site for learning material and use other forums I'm in for interaction.

I've been in 6 different forums and this 1 definately is starting to have a "cliq it or leave it, robot" feel.
 
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Wed Nov 16, 2011, 02:09 AM
(#17)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Stakehorse75,

If your overall purpose in posting this hand in the Hand analysis forum was to get sympathy, this is not the place you are likely to get that. There is a bad beat forum for that purpose.

The hand you posted was marked requesting analysis. To be honest, I wouldn't think you'd be surprised when you get that analysis.

If you choose to not credit what I put up, nor what any other analyst puts up, that is your right of course. I am not even going to APPROACH being 100% correct about everything, and will never pretend to be perfect. If you want to try to change our minds about the analysis we put up, you are also free to post WHY you think we are wrong. Personally, I am ALWAYS ready to consider the fact I may be wrong...

But can you really expect an analyst to change his view, when the REASON you dis-agree with the analysis is because you limped, when you actually limped then called a raise?

If you did not WANT an analysis of this hand (as you claim), then what is the purpose in pointing out our "mistake" in analyzing a hand which was marked "for analysis"? Isn't that what we do in here?

Since the mistake which led to the analysis opinion being given was yours to start with, and since you do not seem value the analysis you get here, why not just let it go? To accuse the analysts in this forum of some kind of bias against you because they did a job you requested of them (accidentally or not), seems a bit off base. Mightn't it be YOU who is biased against this forum and its analysts, and not the other way around?

Now...

Please understand, I am not ACCUSING you of anything, nor trying to get you worked up.

I do totally understand that it might SUCK to have someone tell you that you made a mistake in a hand. But that is in large part what this forum is all about. If the analysts just went around patting everyone on the back, and saying "awwww, good play but bad luck" if they did not mean that, then this forum would really not be of ANY use.

It was never my intention to run you down, but I think ANYONE who knows poker would agree, limping then calling a raise for 1/3rd your stack to set mine, is not a good idea. For me to tell you anything else would be doing a GREATER dis-service to your poker game than taking the chance that saying it might hurt your feelings.

If I had not seen this hand HERE, if I had seen it in the bad beat forum, I would have never risked hurting your feelings by pointing out that calling off 1/3rd of your stack pre flop is a mistake. Afterall, if you do not ASK for advice, it would be pretty rude to give it...

...but by putting your hand in here, and marking it "analysis requested", inadvertantly or not, you were asking for advice. I tried to give you the best advice I possibly could.

I do hope you stay in this forum, and continue posting hands for analysis, but if you do and I see something I think is a mistake, I will continue to tell you about them.

To do anything less would be hurting your game more than anything else.

Last edited by JDean; Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 02:18 AM..
 
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Wed Nov 16, 2011, 10:24 AM
(#18)
mtnestegg's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,336
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stakehorse75 View Post
No, thank you for the clarification. I'll stay out of the forum, don't need this. I can focus better just by using the site for learning material and use other forums I'm in for interaction.

I've been in 6 different forums and this 1 definately is starting to have a "cliq it or leave it, robot" feel.
Whoa stake! for claificatoin I'm in nobody's cliq and am no way anyone's "robot" by any stretch of the imagination. You said you posted to gripe about the "jokerstars" programming. what kind of response to that were you expecting? If you're convinced stars programming isn't straight up, why on earth would you or anyone else that truely believes that EVER play here? I just dont get it! Dude, you made a bad play THEN flopped a "freakin boat", got your money in good, and got sucked out on.... get over it and move on man!

Last edited by mtnestegg; Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 11:07 AM..
 
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Wed Nov 16, 2011, 10:55 AM
(#19)
!!!111Dan's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 3,290
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stakehorse75 View Post
...... I just think they need less people doing these, so it's more uniformed. Too many evaluators makes for different players playing these hands differently, and their views are different giving players different ideas on how they are to be played.
.....
We encourage any and every member to be involved in Hands Analysis...not just the volunteers who make sure every hand gets analyzed. I don't understand why you wouldn't want differing opinions so that you can get a much wider perspective. Plus if someone posts an analysis that may be "off", it gives the opportunity to debate their view. It is all about discussion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stakehorse75 View Post
.....
I originally posted this to complain about the programming that spewed the hand originally.

And this is another Joker Stars special!.....
Stake, you've spent enough time and money here to know that there is no programming designed to beat a player. If you still believed that, would you really play here? The RNG has undergone many external reviews and passed. Hang in there bud.
 
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Wed Nov 16, 2011, 01:47 PM
(#20)
roomik17's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 4,556
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or quit and we will see you again in 2 weeks
 

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