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Middle 2 Pair - MTT fairly deep

 
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Middle 2 Pair - MTT fairly deep - Fri Nov 11, 2011, 07:56 AM
(#1)
Schnech's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 104
Just faced this one at a 1.1$ 2kGtd

Situation: I just joined this table. I usually do not play this kind of suited connectors from that position. So I don't really mind the preflop play here. But I know I could have avoided the post flop decisions. What I want to emphasis on is really the post flop play though. I don't know how I can play this better and don't get broke. Any tips?



Cheers!
 
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Fri Nov 11, 2011, 08:01 AM
(#2)
XxTiberxX's Avatar
Since: Sep 2011
Posts: 374
you have 68x big blind, you should of never played this hand in the first place me think
 
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Fri Nov 11, 2011, 08:05 AM
(#3)
Schnech's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 104
I guess so!
 
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Fri Nov 11, 2011, 08:08 AM
(#4)
19honu62's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,770
Howdy Schnech.... well what are we trying to hit on the flop that is gonna make us play post with a guy that have us covered? Are we gonna play for stacks? So in this case we have 2 limpers ahead of you and we are going to give the odds to everyone behind you to call if you limp behind.
This is similar to the start of a game in that you are 65 bb's deep and you have limpers. When we have limpers we have dead money and the best way to get dead money is to raise it up! You have the stack and position! I suggest 3x plus 1 for each limper. If someone comes over top we fold and save chips. It also gives us some indication how they are gonna play although not much.
So why did he limp? How did you range his limp when you have no read on him? We can guess he has any pr up to 88 because higher prs he likely raises pre. It could be a suited connected hand but based on his post flop bet of a little more than 1/2 pot it could be that he hit his set or Ace rag or could be suited in spades. You also have to ask yourself what does he put you on by limping?
When he calls your re raise you have to be cautious. His turn bet is pretty small indicating he wants you to come over top or he hoping to buy it here as the K spades completes the flushes for you. I don't think you would have AK as you would have raised that pre and when he overbets the riv it is simply that he is a bully or that he is good and hopes you will call.

Gidee Up!

Last edited by 19honu62; Fri Nov 11, 2011 at 09:11 AM..
 
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Fri Nov 11, 2011, 08:38 AM
(#5)
MEVpaul's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 143
BronzeStar
Post flop to avoid going broke just call the 750 bet,raising u can only be called or reraised again by better,protecting 2 pair on a straight/trips/flush draw board is asking for trouble.The fact is limped pot is very hard to put people on hands.Ideally u are looking to find a cheap way to see another 4 or a 3 i wouldnt get carried away with the 2 pair on this kinda board.

Last edited by MEVpaul; Fri Nov 11, 2011 at 08:40 AM..
 
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Fri Nov 11, 2011, 08:46 AM
(#6)
ketchup143's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 279
BronzeStar
i'd say u need to be raising twice as much on the flop as u did to protect ur hand
 
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Fri Nov 11, 2011, 09:34 AM
(#7)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schnech View Post
Just faced this one at a 1.1$ 2kGtd

Situation: I just joined this table. I usually do not play this kind of suited connectors from that position. So I don't really mind the preflop play here. But I know I could have avoided the post flop decisions. What I want to emphasis on is really the post flop play though. I don't know how I can play this better and don't get broke. Any tips?



Cheers!
As played, you did just fine.
You lost near the minimum, and you possibly saved yourself from going bust. You also did not rob yourself of a chance to make the winning hand.

But Let's look a bit deeper:

PRE FLOP:

Playing suited connectors like this from the Hi Jack chair for a limp along is perfectly ok on this depth of money.
If you were shorter (say around 25-30BB), you'd not really like this sort of play, as aggressive entries would be better, but on 60BB+, you can afford to speculate a little bit.

No one raises pre-flop, so you get exactly what you want from a hand like this: a "cheap" flop, with position.

FLOP:

The pot going to the flop is 1350, and it is a 4 way hand.

You flop top 2 pair.

The BB and 1st limper checks, and the 2nd limper leads for 750, which is a little over half pot.

Immediately, I am thinking I have the best hand (even though there is a chance I do not with 3 consecutive wheel cards flopping), so I'm doing exactly what you do - raise it up.

I am looking at a couple of things to guide my sizing:

1) I want to know how "committed" a given raise amount will make me.

If I am looking at a raise which will put me up near a 33% investment of my start stack, I think I would rather make a "stand" on a hand like this rather than a lesser raise.
In this spot though, with the pot at 2475 to me, and with 16.8k in my start stack, I am un-likely to be committed by any sort of "standard" raise.

2) With 2 spades on board I want to bet to DENY ODDS to a spade draw, but INVITE a call by that draw.

Normally, if the pot is heads up, a bet or raise that is around half pot to call will serve to deny odds to even 2 way draws (like A6s in spades for instance).
But because the pot is multi-way, we probably want to bet slightly MORE than this amount to ensure that if the first player to act after us makes a "mistake" by calling, we do not see proper odds given to draws which may show up in later acting hands.

A standard heads up raise over a lead bet of 750 here would be making it around 2175 to go, not the 1755 you made it.
This amount would lay right aobut 2.95 to 1 odds for a 12 out draw which "needs" 3.2 to 1 odds to make a call "correct".
As you are betting quite CLOSE to the absolute pot odds amount needed to draw at 12 outs on the turn, this raise appears very "inviting" to a draw, but still denies him pot odds, see?
BUT...

In order to prevent laying a good price to the lead bettor (if he is on a draw) if an early acting opponent calls, I would probably prefer to raise to at lease 66% of the pot, making it around 2650 to go. Raising this amount means you are laying only about 1.8 to 1 odds for either of the opponents who checked the flop, and you'd be laying only around 2.5 to 1 for the lead bettor to call. This larger amount denies odds still, but also still appears pretty "inviting" to a player drawing.

The amount you raised though, to 1755 to go, meant the lead bettor only had to call 1005 for the chance to win 3855. This means he was getting about 3.8 to 1 odds.
This amount certainly is INVITING, and it denies proper odds to a 9 out flush draw (any raise laying less than about 4.1 to 1 odds will lay a bad price for a 9 out draw), but if the villain is on some sort of 2 way draw with 12 outs, you are giving a good price for him to peel.

So the long and the short of this is simple: You raised too small ont he flop. I would have probably made it 2650 or so to go.

continuing...

Not surprisingly, the opponent flats your small raise.

TURN:

The Ks comes on the turn, and completes a flush draw.
The Villain leads again on this spade, this time for about a 35% pot bet (1750 into a 4860 pot).
You CALL.

I canot really say I "dis-like" this call to be honest.
Yes, the flush is there.
Yes, the villain has suddenly lowered his bet in terms of its size in relation to the pot.
Yes, that may well mean he is PRAYING for a call.
But you still have 2 pair, and still might have the best hand.

The thing is, your small raise on the flop means a call of this bet still has you only about 22% invested in the pot, and you can still FOLD on an extremely scary card on the river, or to an extremely scary BET. Granted, you probably will not LIKE folding the river that deeply invested, but with 52BB still in your stack, you can certain keep going in the tournament with a fold.

But consider this...

The 1755 you raised it to on the flop, plus the 1750 you CALLED on the turn, equals 3505 invested (not counting your pre flop limp).
If you had raised MORE on the flop, making it the suggested 2650 to go, you would be closer to a committment decision when that 3rd spade falls.
Since the villain's bet would probably ALSO be larger than the 1750 he bet on the turn, you'd "know" you were facing a "shove or fold" spot since you'd cross the 33% investment point with a CALL.
Would you really "love" stacking off with a weak top 2 pair on a flush board lacking reads on your opponent?

That means you could probably have FOLDED your top 2 pair hand to the flush "threat", and saved roughly 900 chips...right?

RIVER:

When you flat the opponent's turn bet, he open jams a larger stack that yours on a Jc river.
To me, that REALLY smells of a flush or a straight, not something like AK.
If you were not brand new to the table, you may have a better "feel" for the type of hand this particular villain might bet like that, but without that info, you elected the only real option you had: you mucked.

NOW...

With all this said, I cannot say you made any BIG MISTAKE in the hand: calling off 52BB with middle 2 pair would have (probably) been a big mistake without reads on the villain.

But you perhaps made a "small" mistake by not raising a larger amount when you had every reason to suspect you had the best hand.
That larger raise probably would have served to better define the strength of your holding in the face of a turn spade, and it probably could have "saved" you about 900 chips. For your stack size, 900 is not a "make or break" amount, but if you take a similar "extra" loss just 2 or 3 times in the course of an entire MTT, that can mean the difference between having a stack that you can use as a "weapon" in chip move times, and one on which you are forced to play more "snugly" in order to get you ITM.

All it takes is a tiny "tweak" to your bet sizing, and you may have been able to save a few chips here.

Hope it helps.

-JDean

Last edited by JDean; Fri Nov 11, 2011 at 09:42 AM..
 

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