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Old
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donks... - Fri Nov 11, 2011, 09:24 PM
(#1)
Tomcrockpot's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 140
Hey guys, just had a disappointing session..

playing fl 2c/4c again, after a few hands I get AQ in mid position. I raise pre flop, get reraised by the player behind me, then SB reraises again. I call, the 3 of us see the flop, comes down 10d 3s 4d, sb bets, we all call.. turn comes 10s. sb comes out betting again I fold. the other player calls.. river comes another rag. sb bets again. The other player calls... SB had Q9spades the other had KQ offsuit and picks up the pot. Ok.. that sucks I think.. my ace would have held.. ah well, I know these guys are weak and will bet / call on any draw or overcards.. fish for later...

but then.. later on I just can't hit.. anytime I get dealt a premium hand or am in the blind and see the flop one of two things happens.. I miss, so I fold.. or I hit a weak hand.. top / mid pair on a drawing board for example.. sometimes I'll keep playing and then a scare card will show up.. inevitably every time I fold it transpires at showdown that actually I was ahead, and everytime I go to showdown one of them has something slightly better.
another time I get AQo and then 3 hearts show up on the flop.. another TAG player on the table starts betting aggressively so I fold.. the donks keep calling / reraising and he picks up a huge pot...
another time I'm ahead top pair top kicker, and donk picks up a straight on the river
Finally in the blind I flop 2 pair with Aces and twos, and donk cleans up my stack with trip 4s..

It sometimes feels impossible to play against these guys since they will bet out with overcards or any pair.. they just feel impossible to read..

their stats over 36 hands, vpip 95% pfr 40% and vpip 88% pfr 16%.. should have been easy money.. well it was.. it was just the other TAG players on the table picking it up every time..

I know I was just getting bad luck with the cards this session but it's still frustrating..
 
Old
Default
Fri Nov 11, 2011, 11:09 PM
(#2)
TrumpinJoe's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 4,557
** Moved **
 
Old
Default
Sat Nov 12, 2011, 12:14 AM
(#3)
CannonLee's Avatar
Since: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,418
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomcrockpot View Post
Hey guys, just had a disappointing session..

playing fl 2c/4c again, after a few hands I get AQ in mid position. I raise pre flop, get reraised by the player behind me, then SB reraises again. I call, the 3 of us see the flop, comes down 10d 3s 4d, sb bets, we all call.. turn comes 10s. sb comes out betting again I fold. the other player calls.. river comes another rag. sb bets again. The other player calls... SB had Q9spades the other had KQ offsuit and picks up the pot. Ok.. that sucks I think.. my ace would have held.. ah well, I know these guys are weak and will bet / call on any draw or overcards.. fish for later...

but then.. later on I just can't hit.. anytime I get dealt a premium hand or am in the blind and see the flop one of two things happens.. I miss, so I fold.. or I hit a weak hand.. top / mid pair on a drawing board for example.. sometimes I'll keep playing and then a scare card will show up.. inevitably every time I fold it transpires at showdown that actually I was ahead, and everytime I go to showdown one of them has something slightly better.
another time I get AQo and then 3 hearts show up on the flop.. another TAG player on the table starts betting aggressively so I fold.. the donks keep calling / reraising and he picks up a huge pot...
another time I'm ahead top pair top kicker, and donk picks up a straight on the river
Finally in the blind I flop 2 pair with Aces and twos, and donk cleans up my stack with trip 4s..

It sometimes feels impossible to play against these guys since they will bet out with overcards or any pair.. they just feel impossible to read..

their stats over 36 hands, vpip 95% pfr 40% and vpip 88% pfr 16%.. should have been easy money.. well it was.. it was just the other TAG players on the table picking it up every time..

I know I was just getting bad luck with the cards this session but it's still frustrating..
playing with "feel" in limit holdem is probably the most important attribute to have. by that statement i am referring to exploiting the table image that your opponent has(eg hyper aggressive opponent)


here is how your hand of AQ looks against your opponents hands on the turn.

Win : 66.67%
Tie : 0.00%


Win : 28.57%
Tie : 0.00%


Win : 4.76%
Tie : 0.00%


the scenario that you posted (AQoff mid postion)

calling on the turn for another 4cents is giving about 9 to 1 just holding high card. since those opponents are hyper aggressive, just about any A high or any pair has show down value.

as for calling down with second pair out the blinds, it all depends what hand range you put your opponent on. just because a scary turn card hit it does not mean that they hit a made hand(eg you are holding J9 and flop a pair of 9's with only 1 over card(10) if your hyper aggressive opponent has limped or raised from mid position it would be safe to say he could rep any of the following AK, AQ, AJ, A8, A7 A6, A5, A4, A3 A2, 98, 97, KQ, KJ, K8 etc the hand ranges go on..

if you have a read on your opponent and have seen their cards at showdown, exploit their hand range. it is always nice to play top pair poker, but if you wanna make money against these hyper aggressive opponents, open up your calling range while keeping position at the table in mind.

i hope this will give you some insight on how to develop your LHE game,
try watching this live training session by "TheLangolier"on LHE.
http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/art...m-6-Max-Part-1

gl at the tables

Last edited by CannonLee; Sat Nov 12, 2011 at 12:40 AM..
 
Old
Default
Sat Nov 12, 2011, 12:20 AM
(#4)
joy7108's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,286
Sometimes the donks just get the better flops/turns/rivers, I've often folded some rag hand that turns out to be the nuts once all the cards are dealt. Keep making the right decisions, and sooner or later the tide will turn, and your good hands will hold up.

Part of learning to play is learning how to deal with the bad beats, you'll have lots if you continue playing, there's just no way to avoid it. It's how you deal with it that matters, I know its hard sometimes, but you just gotta roll with the punches and try not to let it affect your play. Good luck, and even more important, good decisions!!

 
Old
Default
Sat Nov 12, 2011, 12:43 AM
(#5)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomcrockpot View Post
Hey guys, just had a disappointing session..

playing fl 2c/4c again, after a few hands I get AQ in mid position. I raise pre flop, get reraised by the player behind me, then SB reraises again. I call, the 3 of us see the flop, comes down 10d 3s 4d, sb bets, we all call.. turn comes 10s. sb comes out betting again I fold. the other player calls.. river comes another rag. sb bets again. The other player calls... SB had Q9spades the other had KQ offsuit and picks up the pot. Ok.. that sucks I think.. my ace would have held.. ah well, I know these guys are weak and will bet / call on any draw or overcards.. fish for later...

but then.. later on I just can't hit.. anytime I get dealt a premium hand or am in the blind and see the flop one of two things happens.. I miss, so I fold.. or I hit a weak hand.. top / mid pair on a drawing board for example.. sometimes I'll keep playing and then a scare card will show up.. inevitably every time I fold it transpires at showdown that actually I was ahead, and everytime I go to showdown one of them has something slightly better.
another time I get AQo and then 3 hearts show up on the flop.. another TAG player on the table starts betting aggressively so I fold.. the donks keep calling / reraising and he picks up a huge pot...
another time I'm ahead top pair top kicker, and donk picks up a straight on the river
Finally in the blind I flop 2 pair with Aces and twos, and donk cleans up my stack with trip 4s..

It sometimes feels impossible to play against these guys since they will bet out with overcards or any pair.. they just feel impossible to read..

their stats over 36 hands, vpip 95% pfr 40% and vpip 88% pfr 16%.. should have been easy money.. well it was.. it was just the other TAG players on the table picking it up every time..

I know I was just getting bad luck with the cards this session but it's still frustrating..
Limit can be VERY frustrating like that.

Personally, I call the phenomena you are experiencing being "out of phase" at the table.

This is characterized by betting strong hands as you should, but being reluctant to continue for over calls without a hand which normally warrant it, and finding yourself calling in situations where you are facing a BETTER hand.

FLHE really SUCKS on nights like that...

A couple of suggestions you might wan to try when you find yourself "out of phase" at the table:

1) Take a break.

At a live venue, I will often get up and go eat dinner, and/or even quit for the night if I am experiencing what you describe.

A dinner break tends to help get my head back on straight, steels my resolve, and allows me to re-affirm the effectiveness of making decisions I KNOW are right; regardless of the results.

If I find a short break is not enough to re-center my thinking, I am quite happy to accept a SMALLER LOSS than I might take if I keep on playing, and come back another day when I am playing better and more confidently.

2) Concentrate even harder on REM thoughts.

Now "Range - Equity - Maximize" thinking is slightly different in FLHE than NLHE, but the ideas still work in FLHE.

Range: You are probably out of phase because you are folding too tightly to weak raises. Maybe you are giving too much credit to the quality of your opponents' hands, and trying to abide by the thought of avoiding calling 2 bets cold or OVER CALLING is causing you to fold too tightly. If you look HARD at your opponents' ranges, you may find that they ARE weak enough to justify calling 2 bets cold or overcalling with hands you'd not normally do so.

Equity: You are also probably out of phase because you are not considering the pot odds PLUS the implied odds of the opponents' greater aggression, and what that does the the "quality" of just an over card draw. This can lead you to 'give up" too quickly, when a little bit extra "gamb00l" in your game may pay you off with a very large pot.

Maximize: You are probably out of phase with the table because you've allowed yourself to let the "hits" your confidence has taken push you into a tighter, and more "read-able" range. In FLHE, LOSING with "quality hands" can be much worse than in NLHE, because opponents notice and start to raise into you, or call you, only when there is "hope" of beating your hand. If there is little hope of them beating a "read-able" tight range, they give up, thus limiting the size of you wins, and increasing the size of your losses when they do suck out. You can reverse this trend by playing a few more solid draw" type hands all the way to showdown; yes, that may increase your overall losses if you do not hit your draws, but it also serves to WIDEN the possible range you are on to increase the chances of maximizing your wins with your more "normal" hands.

So...

There really is no "sure fire" way to get over being "out of phase" in a FLHE game, but a lot of that feeling is caused by the gut perceptions your play has created in opponents. Either working hard to get PAST those perceptions, their's of "confidence" because you are losing, and yours of "trepedation" which may lead you to try more to lessen losses than maximize wins, can be an effective way of breaking the cycle. If that is not working for you, there is nothing wrong at all with switching tables to "re-set" your ability to play a normal game without pre-conceived notions by your opponents, or quitting altogether for the night, is perfectly acceptable.

Afterall, there is no need to bang your head against the wall trying to re-coup a somewhat small loss NOW, when doing so may well result in a BIGGER loss that is even harder to recover.

Hope it helps.

-JDean
 
Old
Default
Sat Nov 12, 2011, 07:04 AM
(#6)
CannonLee's Avatar
Since: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,418
!

Last edited by CannonLee; Sat Nov 12, 2011 at 07:15 AM.. Reason: edit
 
Old
Default
Wed Nov 16, 2011, 01:20 PM
(#7)
Tomcrockpot's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 140
thanks for the tips guys..

Ultimately I think I'd have been best off just moving tables or taking a break. By the end the table had a limited read on me that I would fold to aggression unless I had a made hand, and I was getting too frustrated to mix up my play effectively.

Food for thought,

Thanks
 

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