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Rule 20

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Rule 20 - Sat Nov 12, 2011, 01:15 PM
(#1)
CorkiePoker's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 104
Rule 20: You may not make any chat comments which may affect the play of any hand or tournament, even if you are an observer.

I was assaulted by a wave of rule 20 violations this month. I want everyone to understand my practice: I will report each and every rule 20 violation, whether or not I am involved in the hand; whether or not I am registered in the tournament. If I witness it, I report it.
 
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Sat Nov 12, 2011, 01:25 PM
(#2)
IpushHard's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 38
BronzeStar
I keep all chat turned off.
I know it can be a source of information, but that's pretty rare. To me, its nothing but a distraction.
 
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Sat Nov 12, 2011, 01:26 PM
(#3)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,604
so i should not type "call" to try to get a player to fold or call in chat. Its one of the things you see on poker shows that players speak and ask questions to get information or to try to influance players play to get a call or a lay down.

Thank you though for bringing to my attention. I shall be mindfull in the future.

Question say i win a pot with out a showdown and someone asks what i had....if i over rep the strengh or underrepp it in chat to get a result later on does this could. the literal mindness side of my learning disablility says this is a violation of rule 20 the other side says no its allowed. I do not know which is correct!!

Grade b
 
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Sat Nov 12, 2011, 01:33 PM
(#4)
CorkiePoker's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 104
There are general exceptions for the 2 players remaining in a hand.
 
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Sat Nov 12, 2011, 01:59 PM
(#5)
EdinFreeMan's Avatar
Since: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,540
Quote:
Originally Posted by CorkiePoker View Post
Rule 20: You may not make any chat comments which may affect the play of any hand or tournament, even if you are an observer.

I was assaulted by a wave of rule 20 violations this month. I want everyone to understand my practice: I will report each and every rule 20 violation, whether or not I am involved in the hand; whether or not I am registered in the tournament. If I witness it, I report it.

Good on you Corkie

- I report any shabby shyte I witness. Not much happens very often, but if nobody reports it, it just grows. So I send it in and let the site do as they will.

Gotta have some standards.

Ed from Edinburgh - EdinFreeMan
 
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Sat Nov 12, 2011, 05:33 PM
(#6)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grade b View Post
so i should not type "call" to try to get a player to fold or call in chat. Its one of the things you see on poker shows that players speak and ask questions to get information or to try to influance players play to get a call or a lay down.

Thank you though for bringing to my attention. I shall be mindfull in the future.

Question say i win a pot with out a showdown and someone asks what i had....if i over rep the strengh or underrepp it in chat to get a result later on does this could. the literal mindness side of my learning disablility says this is a violation of rule 20 the other side says no its allowed. I do not know which is correct!!

Grade b

After the hand is over all's fair B. Hell if you can get them to believe they dealt you 2 UNO cards go for it. (I would never believe that if a South American player told me that BTW as they would STILL showdown with 2 UNO cards.)
 
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Sat Nov 12, 2011, 05:38 PM
(#7)
TrumpinJoe's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 4,557
** Moved **
 
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Sat Nov 12, 2011, 06:47 PM
(#8)
!!!111Dan's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 3,290
Quote:
Originally Posted by CorkiePoker View Post
There are general exceptions for the 2 players remaining in a hand.
This is only true in a cash game with only 2 left in the hand, or in a tournament, where it is down to only 2 remaining in the tournament.
 
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Sat Nov 12, 2011, 07:00 PM
(#9)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,604
Quote:
Originally Posted by !!!111Dan View Post
This is only true in a cash game with only 2 left in the hand, or in a tournament, where it is down to only 2 remaining in the tournament.
May I ask what these general exceptions are?

Grade b

(Dictated using Dragon 10)
 
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Sat Nov 12, 2011, 08:49 PM
(#10)
!!!111Dan's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 3,290
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grade b View Post
May I ask what these general exceptions are?

Grade b

(Dictated using Dragon 10)
Just like I said. You may chat about a hand in play if you are playing in a cash game (ring table) and there are only two of you left in the hand. Or, you may chat in a tournament if there are only 2 of you left standing in the tournament. (You're heads up) Otherwise, no chat to influence the play from either a player or observer is allowed and should be reported to support@pokerstars.com and include the hand history, which will include chat.
 
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Sun Nov 13, 2011, 02:18 AM
(#11)
Pentire's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 117
Read literally, rule 20 prohibits almost all chat comments imaginable.

All things I say may influence the play of a current or future hand.

So, when after I take a pot without showing my set of kings and get asked what I had my standard response is "63 off". This is to either tilt, amuse or actually convince that I am playing that loose. I was under the impression that you could say anything you liked at the table about a previous hand to try to confuse your opponents for the future.

Rule 20 expressedly forbids this. I doubt that is the intention behind the rule though.
 
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Sun Nov 13, 2011, 02:39 AM
(#12)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pentire View Post
Read literally, rule 20 prohibits almost all chat comments imaginable.

All things I say may influence the play of a current or future hand.

So, when after I take a pot without showing my set of kings and get asked what I had my standard response is "63 off". This is to either tilt, amuse or actually convince that I am playing that loose. I was under the impression that you could say anything you liked at the table about a previous hand to try to confuse your opponents for the future.

Rule 20 expressedly forbids this. I doubt that is the intention behind the rule though.
(Please note: I am speaking below about the TDA rule prohibiting chat influencing play. Poker Stars rules are similar, but are not exactly the same.)

The issue you bring up is actually the crux of the problems some professionals (especially Daniel Negreanu) have with the way the TDA rule prohibiting chat influencing play was enforced this past year.

Daniel was "gigged" (not sure if he got a penalty or a warning) for talking about his hand in his normal manner. I'm sure we all know how Daniel loves to talk through his thinking on a river decision, especially for the cameras...

The rule was applied in his case to restrict his chat at a live table. He felt that not only effected his ability to derive information, but that it also made poker less interesting to watch. I cannot say Daniel is off base there...

For your example, telling someone you had 63o AFTER the hand is over, seems to be an incredible STRETCH of the TDA rule if it results in a penalty. I mean at the FT of the ME, players had FULL INFO on opponent's holdings 15 minutes after the hand finished...

My personal interepretation (when I've run home MTT, some as high as $100 or $150 BI), would be that chat about hands AFTER the hand is complete is completely acceptable. I would rule this way in my games, based upon the fact that it is IMPOSSIBLE to police all forms of conversation, and ANY talk would have the ability to influence action.

Example:

Say you are playing in my home game, and after a hand your wife comes in and tells you she wants to leave because she is tired. That is almost certainly going to effect your play on some level, and that in turn effects the equity distribution throughout the table.

Should I penalize you at the table because you brought your wife to a "social" evening?

...don't be ridiculous.

A rule can be taken TOO FAR, and I'd think drawing the line at the END of a given hand would be a reasonable place to do so. If the hand is over, talk all you want about it...

Last edited by JDean; Sun Nov 13, 2011 at 02:46 AM..
 
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Sun Nov 13, 2011, 11:39 PM
(#13)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,604
Quote:
Originally Posted by !!!111Dan View Post
Just like I said. You may chat about a hand in play if you are playing in a cash game (ring table) and there are only two of you left in the hand. Or, you may chat in a tournament if there are only 2 of you left standing in the tournament. (You're heads up) Otherwise, no chat to influence the play from either a player or observer is allowed and should be reported to support@pokerstars.com and include the hand history, which will include chat.
So based on this, and what i read in these forums...will you report me for tell players where i live?

yes i know i'm "being silly" but think about it how many times have you read that europians are loose? so if i tell you i'm from erope you could believe i'm loose and that would infuance your play.

yes or no?

i hate rues like this not becuase i'm an anacist but becuase they are tooooooooooooooooo open to interperation.

yes a ruke that says a third party sould not advice a playing during a live hand i agree but this rule wellllllllll i have no idea whet is and what s not allowed and i bet i'm not the only one.

($200 pm me)

Grade (easily confused) b
 
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Sun Nov 13, 2011, 11:40 PM
(#14)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,604
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pentire View Post
Read literally, rule 20 prohibits almost all chat comments imaginable.

All things I say may influence the play of a current or future hand.

So, when after I take a pot without showing my set of kings and get asked what I had my standard response is "63 off". This is to either tilt, amuse or actually convince that I am playing that loose. I was under the impression that you could say anything you liked at the table about a previous hand to try to confuse your opponents for the future.

Rule 20 expressedly forbids this. I doubt that is the intention behind the rule though.
+ (rule) 20
 
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Mon Nov 14, 2011, 01:30 AM
(#15)
mcrissinger's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,650
BronzeStar
Everyone... "Thank you, Jamie Gold..."

Seriously, he is the reason that strict limitations came into play. Re-watch 2006. He was way out of line so many times that chatting during a hand was perma-attached to him. And, in the end, it's how he ended up winning.

When it comes to a home-game setting, obviously looser rules apply.

In the end, you can usually feel out when it's wrong and when it's innocent. But there's still a fine line.

edit: Oh yeah, how's Gold's poker career going?

edit 2: I took my own advice and re-watched some of those hands... I remembered how pissed off I was at his play then, and it was multiplied by being a much more involved and knowledgeable player.

Darvin Moon is my hero.

Last edited by mcrissinger; Mon Nov 14, 2011 at 01:48 AM..
 
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Mon Nov 14, 2011, 02:48 AM
(#16)
0HighTimes0's Avatar
Since: Apr 2011
Posts: 840
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pentire View Post
Read literally, rule 20 prohibits almost all chat comments imaginable.

All things I say may influence the play of a current or future hand.

So, when after I take a pot without showing my set of kings and get asked what I had my standard response is "63 off". This is to either tilt, amuse or actually convince that I am playing that loose. I was under the impression that you could say anything you liked at the table about a previous hand to try to confuse your opponents for the future.

Rule 20 expressedly forbids this. I doubt that is the intention behind the rule though.
What about the new show cards(in hand) feature? doesn't it (may) influence the play of a current or future hand?.
I was under impression (after reading rules, months ago) that you may only talk about hand after hand was played too!

Last edited by 0HighTimes0; Mon Nov 14, 2011 at 02:51 AM..
 
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Mon Nov 14, 2011, 05:54 AM
(#17)
Darkman61's Avatar
Since: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,225
BronzeStar
Not sure where the confusion's coming from here

I interpret the rule to mean that nothing is to be said that could influence play whilst the hand is in progress. Say whatever you like afterwards. Might be nice if you didn't wish your opponent death by cancer though
 
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Mon Nov 14, 2011, 09:25 AM
(#18)
HostMichaeJO's Avatar
Since: Sep 2011
Posts: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkman61 View Post
Not sure where the confusion's coming from here

I interpret the rule to mean that nothing is to be said that could influence play whilst the hand is in progress. Say whatever you like afterwards. Might be nice if you didn't wish your opponent death by cancer though
PokerStars broadly agrees with Darkman61.
 
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Mon Nov 14, 2011, 11:03 AM
(#19)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,604
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkman61 View Post
Not sure where the confusion's coming from here

I interpret the rule to mean that nothing is to be said that could influence play whilst the hand is in progress. Say whatever you like afterwards. Might be nice if you didn't wish your opponent death by cancer though

The confusion for me comes write here "I interpret the rule to mean", well the problem is we all interpret the rule in a differant way.

However having read though the various posts i am happier that i understand the rule.

Grade b
 
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Mon Nov 14, 2011, 11:17 AM
(#20)
Darkman61's Avatar
Since: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,225
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grade b View Post
The confusion for me comes write here "I interpret the rule to mean", well the problem is we all interpret the rule in a differant way.
I think that's known as misinterpretation. But fear not, we've already established that you have reasons to be afforded some leniancy in this respect
 

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