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should i have shoved pre ?

 
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should i have shoved pre ? - Tue Nov 15, 2011, 03:45 PM
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m.bisland's Avatar
Since: Apr 2010
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This guy been calling every hand wanted to shove but thought a raise would get more in pot.



other table this happened to me
 
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Tue Nov 15, 2011, 04:03 PM
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AA: you could have shoved pre, but no problem with your raise. I absolutely HATE the check on the flop. 100% must c-bet it. If opp raises, you know they have a 3 and can fold. The min bet on the turn is bad too. Turn min-bet... don't care for that either. Either value bet it or check it if they call the flop. Min doesn't accomplish much of anything and you want to try to find out where you are in the hand.

67s: I hope this was a cash tourney and not a PSO game. PSO game, it's a quick fold to the opp's raise. Cash tourney, it's loose, your hand is concealed... BUT.. you're out of position and due to position, it's pretty loose. You have to check the flop and turn and when you hit your flush, no problem betting.. but.. the shove after the opp's raise is scary. They could easily have a full house (preflop raise with broadway ace for a full house is WELL within their range), along with higher clubs.
That hand is a good example of a marginal hand that you want to muck preflop due to being out of position.
 
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Tue Nov 15, 2011, 04:12 PM
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m.bisland's Avatar
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Ok what about table 3
 
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Tue Nov 15, 2011, 04:15 PM
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no problem with the QQ. I'll make the same play every time (unless there's 1 or 2 more to go thru in an mtt to cash).... then I'll get ITM, then look to play a hand.
 
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Tue Nov 15, 2011, 04:43 PM
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Since: Oct 2010
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AA: Raise pre. Jam any flop. Unless you think villain will usually bet if checked to. Then check/shove any flop.

67s: You're not deep enough to call to try and make a hand. The best option is probably to just fold--let the BB defend. Calling intending to jam any flop as a stop-and-go is an option too, but you have to ship any flop if you call. This is actually be better than 3-betting all in pre, as you don't really have any preflop fold equity on your 8BB stack. It's also a move you can only make in the blinds, and not in position. Blinds give you the right of first bluff. So either fold or call and shove the flop. The problem with calling is that you don't close the action and the BB can still 3-bet or join in and it's harder to bluff two players than one.
 
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Tue Nov 15, 2011, 04:44 PM
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JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
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Hand #1:
14BB does not mean you HAVE to jam pre.
But if you have a villain with that many more chips than you, and one who will call extremely lightly, why not?

The fact is, on your stack, a raise to 250 will often look STRONGER than an all in raise.
It shows you hold a hand you are DESPRETE to get pre flop action on, and also one which you are willing to commit to on ANY flop (since you've put 1/3rd your chips in roughly). This means if the villain likely has enough sense, he should (probably, depending on what you've shown in your prior play) fold to this raise more often than he will to a jam.

The only reason I'd consider raising off about 1/3rd of my stack would be in a "stop n go" play, where my intent is to launch all the rest in on ANY flop.

If you try a stop n go vs. a loose caller, you very well may get the pre flop call you want, but what happens then?
If he is REALLY WIDE, he will miss the flop quite often, and your flop jam does not get called; you;ve let him off the hook for the rest of your chips if he MIGHT have called pre, right? Or to put it another way, you induced him to stick around, and when he does he only calls with better or folds worse; and you value own yourself.

BUT...

Given your info, that this guy was calling "everything", AND given the results that he called a very committing raise by you holding 93s (93 ffs! suited poop is still poop!), can you really think you NEEDED to do anything "tricky" to call your shove? There ARE player types (loose limpers who tend to fold at least occasionally to raises) that your line is preferable, but with the info you had, I think the open jam would have been a better choice.

The results are still the same either way, but it is the difference between putting yourself in a +eV situation, and a BIGGER +eV situation. Me, I'll take bigger every time I can.

Hand #2:

Under 10BB, you should be folding or jamming here, you simply do not have the chips to call a raise then fold.

If you do not think an all in will get this villain to fold often enough, it is better to fold half a BB and pick a better spot.

When you DO enter passively for a big portion of your stack, you do not pull the trigger on any kind of aggressive action to take this one down UNTIL you make your hand.
That means you are leaving yourself 1 way to win: holding the best hand at show down.

76s is not often going to BE the best hand at showdown, and with 25% of your chips CALLED into the pot, that is far too much of an investment to passively wait for good things to happen.

The fact you made the flush on the river is immaterial, as in MOST situations, the initial pre flop raiser will C-Bet over your flop check. ANY C-Bet by him builds the pot to a point that he is essentially un-bluffable, because he WILL be getting big time pot odds to call the rest of your stack. So the "luck" you had in this hand was that you got to SEE the river at all...more often than not you are going to be forced to FOLD 25% of your stack on the flop, or try a donk lead bet at the pot with a very marginal holding.

That isn't good for you at all.

Hand #3:

2 hands you are behind (AA/KK), 1 hand you are racing (AK), and all the rest of what he may have is a good dog to you.

You have just under 19BB here, and a near double up will move your stack out of the re-shove size zone, and into a stack with more play options.

I am RARELY folding here, and am only folding against the most uber-nitty shove ranges (almost never happens), and taking whatever comes.

A rag Ace will have about a 30% chance to suck out on you, and that chance came in this hand. The risk to get back onto a stack with wider paly options (although a true deep stack) ws wll worth the call here.

Good job.

Last edited by JDean; Tue Nov 15, 2011 at 04:47 PM..
 

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