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I thought it was a good fold ?

 
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I thought it was a good fold ? - Wed Nov 16, 2011, 05:19 PM
(#1)
m.bisland's Avatar
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Good fold? but i think i should have not checked it just shoved instead.
 
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Wed Nov 16, 2011, 05:33 PM
(#2)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,607
In your position Unless i had a strong read that the vilian was super maniac i would have folded to the preflop raise. If i thought he was super weak i MIGHT have reraised if i thought Villian number 2 would fold.

You are in SB so the worst posible position when flop comes. I have to put my hand up to completeing too many sb becuase its cheak and to quote TheLangolier "i'm getting good odds"
But in reality If it was just you and justOmiu he was over an 80% favorite.

with 3 of you in he is 75% favorite. Now he may be a maniac but even maniacs get deal good hands from time to time.

Grade b
 
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Wed Nov 16, 2011, 05:43 PM
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JWK24's Avatar
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Well, I'd have done a couple of things differently, assuming it was a cash tourney. In a PSO, it's an instant fold.

First, if the opp that raised preflop was playing tighter (not seeing many hands so far), then I just let it go preflop since you're out of position. I'd try to find a better spot where I had position and you've got plenty of chips.

Now.. if I'd have called and saw the flop, I'd want to make a larger bet on the flop, as I'd want to price out anyone that might be drawing at a gutshot straight. Probably about a bet of 500. That way, if either opp shoves, then it would be a legal raise and I could then re-shove to try and isolate only 1 opp.
It also wouldn't be a bad play to just outright shove the flop too.
 
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Thu Nov 17, 2011, 11:04 AM
(#4)
Mikey_Luggs's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 138
Simple and most common answer = Fold Pre Flop!
 
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Thu Nov 17, 2011, 12:10 PM
(#5)
!!!111Dan's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 3,290
Not a good fold.
This is pretty much an insta-fold pre-flop for me in any game..especially if it's a skill league game.

With that, there's absolutely no way you should fold to the turn bet. You should either be reraising after the shove by the short stack on the flop, or trap and just call as you did, totally expecting to call the remaining bet by the other villain. You have too much invested into this potential pot and could still hit a boat.
You've gotten yourself into a bad position by not folding pre-flop, and once you do that, you have to make the best of it.
 
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Thu Nov 17, 2011, 12:43 PM
(#6)
mtnestegg's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,336
Eeyup! Fold that crap pre when oop! And jusst a suggestion, but ommit the outcome b4 you quicksave. As it generally skews advice, whether knowingly or not, as this should be about plays, not outcomes.
 
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Thu Nov 17, 2011, 03:33 PM
(#7)
m.bisland's Avatar
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Was a 0.25 45 man sng the 2 players were loose players. I just called cause i knew the guy after me would call aswell. Once he called a looked at the board again and insta thought he has an 8 thats why i checked. On any other day i would have just pushed all in. Not been playing properly the last 2 weeks.
 
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Thu Nov 17, 2011, 04:05 PM
(#8)
Deleted user
Going to comment with out reading the comments to keep things honest.

Im not mad about the preflop call,its one of those spots where you may have been going off a read.
Like some players only show aggression with AQ or AK,they slowplay AA or KK.So playing connectors against them isnt the worst plan and can be profitable like set mining.

Flop I dont like leading out otherwise known as the donk bet,since you are not the preflop agressor.I would have check/raised that flop and would have check raised for sure if I was in Quismas's seat.
Betting 50% of the pot is something you do with the nuts and here you have a good chance of KQ or a overpair catching up to you.When PF aggressor shoves you need to either fold or protect your hand by shoving over top.

Turn is a spot you wouldnt be in if you played the Flop correctly and calling or folding really depends on reads. I call some players allins with Ace high because I have watched them play.
Stack size is another thing to watch for a read. Since I dont know if this is PSO,MTT or STT I cant be of much more help.Guess I have to read the comments now..lol

One more thing the buyin is going to help as well in figuring out if the 3rd player shoving on the turn is just gambling or a bad player. Higher stakes combined with reads would tell me that your
looking at a player that thinks they have the preflop and you beat or at least able to get you to fold which means you have shown weakness prior. Or they suck and cant read a board or a player.
 
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Thu Nov 17, 2011, 04:11 PM
(#9)
Deleted user
Ok read the comments and the buyin.

People do not know what they are doing for the most part at this level.
I was going to mention that I dont mind giving up position against a weak opponent but at this buyin its better to play on the conservative side and take advantage all aspects you can as a Tag player.
 
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Thu Nov 17, 2011, 04:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deleted user View Post
I was going to mention that I dont mind giving up position against a weak opponent but at this buyin its better to play on the conservative side and take advantage all aspects you can as a Tag player.
+1 Absolutely 100% correct.
 
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Thu Nov 17, 2011, 04:39 PM
(#11)
m.bisland's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deleted user View Post
Ok read the comments and the buyin.

People do not know what they are doing for the most part at this level.
I was going to mention that I dont mind giving up position against a weak opponent but at this buyin its better to play on the conservative side and take advantage all aspects you can as a Tag player.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JWK24 View Post
+1 Absolutely 100% correct.
I been looking for my tag game lately but cant find it But you are right as tag play is how i have managed the few final tables.
 
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Thu Nov 17, 2011, 04:43 PM
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It's what works on those tables.
I used to play them before black friday, Moxie Pip, more of them than me. It's what we've found works (play money 320 chip 45 man's are similar too.. a bit better players in the quarters, but similar) .
Also, don't be worried about going out in 8th-12th if you get a premium hand. Play them aggressively as you would playing TAG and while you will lose some of them and not get ITM, by that time, one double-up will greatly increase your ROI% in them from deep runs and the larger payouts due to the deeper runs.
 
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Thu Nov 17, 2011, 05:21 PM
(#13)
m.bisland's Avatar
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I think i can play to tight sometimes all the way threw these. Last night i found myself in the last 18 without playing a hand i pushed with Ad10d on SB and got 3 callers knocked straight out
 
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Thu Nov 17, 2011, 05:28 PM
(#14)
JWK24's Avatar
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that's a great example of a hand out of position... definitely watch the video linked you to in the other thread. It WILL improve your game.
 
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Thu Nov 17, 2011, 05:38 PM
(#15)
m.bisland's Avatar
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lol i just learn't something in the 1st 10 minutes. I am really looking forward to his review off mine
he makes is so simple to understand.
 
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Thu Nov 17, 2011, 07:48 PM
(#16)
JDean's Avatar
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No, bad fold. sorry to say, but here is why...

Pre Flop:

You call a raise oop with JTo.
Now the raise was over 1 limper, and the standard raise (making it 4.25BB to go) is about 7.5% of your start stack.

Realistically, 7.5% of your stack, especially when the raiser is putting about 16% of his chips in the pot pre flop, means yu are probably going to reach a committment decision (either by you or by one of the other stacks) pretty quickly. Also, you do not know what the SB acting behind you pre flop will do: he cannot reasonably CALL 20% of his stack then fold, so if he comes along you may find yourself facing either a pre flop jam (which you probably cannot call), or a "stop and go" type play.

That potential action building here does not bode well for a hand like JT that will USUALLY flop just a draw or a top pair hand with a marginal kicker. Are you really confident in playing the likeliest flops to hit JTo versus a flop SHOVE by the SB (about 40% of your stack), OR the intial raiser? If that shove does happen, you are likely folding off about 7.5% of your chips that you really did not "need" to invest here at all.

Obviously, versus some villain types, especially those who will play extremely PASSIVELY, or those who will raise a good portion of their stacks pre flop then FOLD, are worthy targets for a call along here, but without that info I think coming along is a bit loose.

Flop:

Now you bink top 2 of the flop; BINGO! Right?

You've gotten MUCH more than you can typically expect to have on the flop when you play JTo (there is only about a 5% chacne in total you'll flop 2 pair+ with your hand).
You then lead at the pot for 340 (exactly half pot), and increase your investment up to about 19.5% of your stack.

With a potential straight on board, you should decide BEFORE you lead whether or not you are going to "play for stacks" with your holding. If the answer is "yes" (as it probably SHOULD be more often than not if you get a better than normally expected flop with an entry hand), then your lead is quite nice: it looks like you are just donk betting to take the betting lead to protect some sort of oop draw. It gets value in from lesser hands quite often here, and may also induce the JAM you want from the initial raiser.

If the answer is "no", then you should CHECK, with the intent to FOLD if the short stack villain jams.
You see m.bisland, this spot is where you are playing not at a committment point for YOU, but at the committment point of the EFFECTIVE STACK.

Just like if you were nearing a committment point for your stack you'd want to shove all in to avoid making a big mistake by folding after putting a large part of your stack in and "giving up", you have to think BEFORE you act to add chips to the pot whether or not your hand is worth playing for the entirety of the effective stack (in case you do not know, the effective stack is the smallest stack reamining in the hand). Since YOU are not "committed" to the pot on your stack there is no need for you to move all in, oftentimes a bet like that will fold out worse hands and get called by better ones, but you should not bet at all here unless you intend to call (or raise) if the effective stack moves in...see?

A willingness to "give up" on the pot means you've recognized that your holding has marginal value: it could be best, but it may not be too.
In spots where your hand has only marginal value (sometimes refered to as "showdown value"), you are better off seeking to control the size of the pot.
That means if you had ANY intent to fold at any time, on any type of card that may come, you are probably better off checking this big flop hit, to see what those behind you might do. See?

Now...

You lead, and the BB (a similar sized stack to your's) calls.
The short stack then JAMS.

This is where making the decision BEFORE you bet on whether starts to pay off. Consider...

The thing you NEED to be thinking about is re-shoving over the all in to freeze out the BB and to keep his dead money in the pot, OR to get him to commit maximum value if he wants to continue to draw here.

See how determining BEFORE your lead bet might make that decision a LOT easier to make?

As played, instead you FLAT CALL the all in, and you increase your investment in the pot up to just under half your stack.
Now are you EVER folding after investing that amount of your stack?
(obviously yes, since you did, but that is a mistake because you should not have called if you had any intent to fold; it was too expensive for you to do so)
Do you want to risk letting either a 4th straight card coming that may make your hand 2nd best?
Do you want to possibly risk an "action killer" card coming on the turn, denying you a pay off for the REST of your stack (or the rest of the BB's stack) because you did not re-shove?

So no matter what, a flat call of the all in is bad for you.

Turn:

The turn card does drop the 4th straight card, and you check.
As played, this may be ALL you can do, as that card does represent a significant threat to you.
Moving all in on the turn would certainly be a bet that value owns you to some extent, as it either gets called by better or folds out worse a lot of the time; the only reason you probably should STILL make it is that the BB is so committed by HIS flat call of the all in he may well HAVE to call you on just a 1 pair hand.

About the WORST thing you can do is put nearly half your stack in here and fold...

M.Bisland, please note this is a pretty common issue for some people, especially for those who are trying to play a disciplined game, without falling into utter "nittiness".
These sorts of things are not really "mistakes" in determining the value of your holding, as much as they are a failure to recognize how comitting to your stack an action pattern may become BEFORE you reach a point of no return.

There is absolutely no "shame" in folding top 2 on this flop; obviously that would be a little "weak" since it is a hand much better than you'd normally expect to flop when you decide to call a raise oop with JTo. The mistake starts to occur when you vacillate between viewing your hand as one you could bet on, then you suddenly CHANGE your assessment of that hand's strength to view it as a calling hand. Had you stuck to your decision to believe your hand was a BETTING hand (as it is much of the time, even on this board), you do not set yourself up for the BIG MISTAKE of putting half your stack in the folding.

Jamming over the top of the all in only to find the BB had flopped a set or a straight would have been a small mistake really, even though it cripples your MTT.
You can expect to be best with top 2 often enough that the act of jamming is not where the mistake was "small" made. the small mistake actually would have happened pre-flop when you decided to play a somewhat weak hand versus a stronger range, or versus a weaker range that may have connected HARDER. Pre Flop mistakes in calling are usually only small ones, because they tend to be cheap (if you do not compound them with later errors), and any 2 cards have a CHANCE to flop great.

Folding top 2 pair on a 3 straight card board is probably a medium sized mistake.
It would be a medium sized mistake because if you are going to enter a pot, you have an expectation for certain hands (draws and top pairs usually) showing on the flop.
When you flop BETTER than those hands you'd expect to see on the flop, you defeat the purpose of palying the hand in the first place if you are not willing to put chips in.

Putting half your stack in then folding is a BIG MISTAKE.
To me, this is the biggest mistake in poker.
You either need to recognize EARLIER, before you get that deep, that you might be beat and FOLD (even if that may mean folding the best hand), or you must play out the hand in the HOPE you are not beaten.

So while you may not have played this particular hand well M.Bisland, you can take heart in the fact that your "mistakes" here are somewhat easy to correct.

Just make sure you are looking at the effective stack sizes, understand how fast a committment point for OTHER players may approach and how that committment point may effect the strength of hand you need to call or put them in, and you can avoid these sorts of things in the future.

Hope it helps...

-JDean

Last edited by JDean; Thu Nov 17, 2011 at 08:04 PM..
 
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Thu Nov 17, 2011, 08:05 PM
(#17)
m.bisland's Avatar
Since: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,260
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Thanks jd all makes sense. After the flop was betting half the pot good bad or should i have checked to see what they do or mabe bet more to get to see if i can steal it there ?
 
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Thu Nov 17, 2011, 08:09 PM
(#18)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m.bisland View Post
Thanks jd all makes sense. After the flop was betting half the pot good bad or should i have checked to see what they do or mabe bet more to get to see if i can steal it there ?
Half pot bet on the flop is fine, as long as you know you are willing to go to the wall on your top 2 pair hand.

1) it tends to lock out draws OR set them up to pay max price to get there
2) it is something the shortie may well jam over you with less

As long as your are prepared with your decision on what you will DO if the shortie comes over you (or the BB for that matter), betting half pot on the flop is very nice indeed.
 
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Thu Nov 17, 2011, 08:11 PM
(#19)
m.bisland's Avatar
Since: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,260
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Thank you
 

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