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When to quit a table.

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When to quit a table. - Mon Nov 21, 2011, 11:12 AM
(#1)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,604
Hi all,

So was reading a post by GODvsDOG but don't wish to hijack it off topic.

Carn Destop posted some good advice there which included the following,


---- Profit
We all want to make a profit from poker. As a casino table game dealer, I learned a few things about making money. The biggest trick is knowing when to leave. The smart player goes for a 10% profit. So when you decide to play, set yourself a "review time." If you are playing tourneys, check whenever you bust from a game or it end. In rings, set a specific time, such as at the end of an hour. If you are ahead by more than the 10%, have fun with the excess, but leave when it disappear.



Read more: I know my problem,but still... - PokerSchoolOnline Forum http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/for...#ixzz1eMATdcwh

So do you think this is good advice, In a Training Felix (i think) Said that once you have doubled up at a table it was time to leave, if there was another big stack there as that changed the nature of the game you are in (as you are now Deeper stacked.)

When i was playing Ring games i would find when i had doubled up i stalled, not sure if that was a mental thing and if i didn't leave the table i would get it all in and sometimes win but more often lose the lot.

Has to be said i was not a great poker player in those days.

Now i don't play a lost of ring games but i would like to get back to some and so..... Help

what is a good time to leave a table (micro stakes) and why?

Thanks in advance,

Grade b
 
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Mon Nov 21, 2011, 11:17 AM
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mtnestegg's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
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I heard dave say this many times, when your winning and your table image is good keep playing, and when you're losing and/or your table image is bad, move on. there are plenty of tables to choose from if 1 is not working out for you.
 
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Mon Nov 21, 2011, 11:20 AM
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Instead of doubling. I try to change when I hit 50% profit. Yes, you may not have as good of a read on your opps, but they also won't have one on you. Also, eventually the cards will even out if you've been running good, so bank the $$ and don't give it back.
 
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Mon Nov 21, 2011, 01:23 PM
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Cairn Destop's Avatar
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There was a bit of a disagreement regarding my advice, so I wrote a reply. I'll be editing out the names, but thought it could be helpful here:


If you are playing your A-game, there is no reason to stop once you hit a certain point. However, varience will happen and having a firm cutoff point will prevent tilt if you are ahead. This does not mean one should change from solid poker to maniac because there is some "excess funds." The truth is that having the excess should encourage you to continue playing your A-game.

Having those excess funds allows you the chance to do some experimenting, which is what I mean by "having fun." Do you always fold low pockets? If you have that cushion, you might experiment by playing a low pocket hand. Hate suited connectors? With a cushion, play to see the flop. In other words, try expanding your selection range for a few hands. If it doesn't work, go back to the A-game until you are ahead.

When I was a dealer, I cannot tell you how many players came to my table, hit a good run where they doubled, and left broke. If these players took the professional advice, they would drag that 110% and play with the rest. When that money disappeared, as it can at any game, leaving would mean a profit. Chasing that elusive big hit will eventually have you losing in the long term. The smart player accepts the small gains, banks it, and moves up in stakes slowly, thereby keeping whatever gains they realized.

Let me give you an example. A player is playing $2/$4 limit, which means the maximum cost per round will be $48. If the starting stake is $200, your initial decision point is at $268. (Opening stake of $200, plus 10%, plus one maximum bet.) You decide to reconsider your play at the top of the hour. If you are over the $268 mark, make a firm commitment to leave if your table stake ever dips below $220.

However, you should also have a definite time to stop regardless of your success or failure at the table. From my experience as a dealer, the players who consistently had a growing bankroll were the ones who set a time limit and held to it. When you begin playing, decide when to stop. You could pick something like a favorite show, meal time, or a specific time. When that time comes, stop, regardless of your success. There is always tomorrow.
 
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Mon Nov 21, 2011, 01:47 PM
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roomik17's Avatar
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10% is too small imho
 
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Mon Nov 21, 2011, 02:20 PM
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Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,604
Quote:
Originally Posted by roomik17 View Post
10% is too small imho

Why do you think 10% is too small?

What would you recommend instead?

Thanks

Grade b
 
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Mon Nov 21, 2011, 02:28 PM
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buy in for $3 thats .30 , thats like win one hand and leave lol I aim for $1.50, if running good look to add to that, but if I fall below $1.50 tthen it is time to run
 
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Mon Nov 21, 2011, 02:35 PM
(#8)
Grade b's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roomik17 View Post
buy in for $3 thats .30 , thats like win one hand and leave lol I aim for $1.50, if running good look to add to that, but if I fall below $1.50 tthen it is time to run

yes i can see why thats not a good level but i might be very happy if i buy in for $500 though.

That said, Cairn Destop is not saying to stop when you get 10% up (i think) but rather after you get to a set point abouve this 10% plus i max bet. Evaluate and decide that should you fall back down, to this level you are going to quit.

Grade b
 
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Mon Nov 21, 2011, 02:58 PM
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JDean's Avatar
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lotsa grist for the mill here...

Personally, I HATE stop/win or stop/loss points.

If the table is good, and I am still playing my best, I want to play as long as possible. Realistically though, on line is a different animal in this respect than live play...

For 1 thing, you get a TON more hands on line. That means if you are winning good, chances are your opponents are picking up a lot of info on you. The more info they have, the more they can configure their play decisions to lessen your wins.

For another, on line game choices, and the ability to hop into a new table, is FAR easier than live. This means there really is no reason to give people more than a 100 hand or so look at your play style. You can also simply move to another table and "rat hole" our winnings, thereby putting yourself LESS at risk for a losing session. In Live play, if you elect to leave your current table, you may have a 1 hour+ wait for a new seat to open, and when one does open it may be far less beneficial to your bottom line than the one you left.

So I can definately see someone suggesting a double your money and leave philosophy for on line play.

For LIVE play though, I have found I can usually only play at my best for about 8 hours without a break of about an hour to un-wind. After a dinner break, I am usually good for another 3 to 4 hours, but after that I tend to see my decisions deteriorate.

I also guage when to leave based on the STACKS at the table. In an NL game, the bigger the stacks are at the table, the more money there is for you to potentially win. If a really BIG stack leaves, or if a couple of medium big stacks leave, only to be replaced by a max buy in stack, then it is usually time to leave.

By the same token, when I am playing live, I usually get some idea of how to play my opponents. If he table turns over significantly, say 3 or 4 people leave in a short span, often times the effort to re-build my strategies for the new opponents are not worth the risk to the stack I've already built; so I usually leave at that point.

so there are a LOT of reaosns for leaving a table n NLHE, but I rarely use the amount I have won or lost as a reason.

NOTE:

I DO tend to use stop/loss points when I play FLHE (stop/loss = leaving when you hit a certain loss point). I have found that if I drop around 20 BB in a FLHE game (BB = big bets), the chances of me re-couping all of that amount before I hit a fatigue wall are quite small. It makes no sense to bang my head against the wall chasing a 20 BB loss, as I've found that you tend to get 5 or 10 BB back, then lose, then get a couple back, then lose, etc. when I approach 20BB in losses at a FLHE Game, I generally look to get back about 5 BB, then call it a night (unless the loss came very EARLY int eh session). If I am winning, I simply play as I would at an NLHE table in terms of when I quit, and usually leave only when I am tired, or things change significantly at the table.
 
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Mon Nov 21, 2011, 03:16 PM
(#10)
Deleted user
IF you feel like your losing a edge quit the table,I jump around like a mad man when I play cash.
Regs are another sign to move on as well.When you see a player on half of your tables mark them.
Or more than 300 hands. You will see them sign up for the wait list and once they sit and that one fish is dried up move it along.
 
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Mon Nov 21, 2011, 05:29 PM
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Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deleted user View Post
IF you feel like your losing a edge quit the table,I jump around like a mad man when I play cash.
Regs are another sign to move on as well.When you see a player on half of your tables mark them.
Or more than 300 hands. You will see them sign up for the wait list and once they sit and that one fish is dried up move it along.
some good advice,

Of course as a rank beginner i find it hard to know i'm losing my edge sometimes.....

Grade b
 
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Mon Nov 21, 2011, 05:42 PM
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roomik17's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grade b View Post
some good advice,

Of course as a rank beginner i find it hard to know i'm losing my edge sometimes.....

Grade b
when they start beating you
 
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Mon Nov 21, 2011, 05:53 PM
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m.bisland's Avatar
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You should quit now ! Ive seen u play
 
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Mon Nov 21, 2011, 05:55 PM
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Cairn Destop's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grade b View Post
That said, Cairn Destop is not saying to stop when you get 10% up (i think) but rather after you get to a set point abouve this 10% plus i max bet. Evaluate and decide that should you fall back down, to this level you are going to quit.


That's the right of it. And yes, when playing live, a 10% margin is the right cutoff point. The longer you play, the greater the chances of losing. Somebody did mention the potential of fatigue affecting your decisions.


Again, I'll be the first to agree regarding the online game. To leave a game after winning 10%, when you staked a table for a dollar, does not make sense. There would be a potential of jumping off a table after one hand, even at a 1¢/2¢ game. Yet you'll notice that there is a suggested change-table point of 300 hands, which doesn't take into account your table stake at that point.

For online play, one might want to consider a cutoff point, which I'll define as a maximum acceptable loss for a session. This would be a bankroll call. If my current bankroll said I can play $5.00 for this session, I might play multiple ring games. For a person that can handle five tables at once, it might be wise playing five 1¢/2¢ games. If you can only handle two, perhaps two 5¢/10¢ games would be appropriate.

My decision point would have a time factor. I come online with the intent of playing to a specific time. When I reach it, I leave. Such control keeps me from feeling the pressure to tilt. I am not attempting to make up losses, which can lead to bad play.

I'm glad this has sparked some good debate, and has raised some valid points regarding the difference between live and online. However, I would like to point out what initially had me write about profit. What are the ways one avoids tilt?

Last edited by Cairn Destop; Mon Nov 21, 2011 at 05:59 PM..
 
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Mon Nov 21, 2011, 06:06 PM
(#15)
RockerguyAA's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,089
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I leave a cash table if the following occurs:

1) I'm ending my session
2) Too many people leave the table at same time
3) I look around and all I see is regs and the thought pops in my mind, "I'm not going to make any money here."
 
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Mon Nov 21, 2011, 08:29 PM
(#16)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,604
Quote:
Originally Posted by m.bisland View Post
You should quit now ! Ive seen u play
Thank you for your support i shall wear it always

Grade b

(It is nice to know that at least one other person thinks i need to laugh at least once an hour.)
 
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Wed Nov 23, 2011, 11:11 AM
(#17)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,604
Quote:
Originally Posted by RockerguyAA View Post
I leave a cash table if the following occurs:

1) I'm ending my session
2) Too many people leave the table at same time
3) I look around and all I see is regs and the thought pops in my mind, "I'm not going to make any money here."
So if that is the case will you keep retopping up your satck at this table even after say 2 or 3 bust outs (You made the right choices but the other guy(s)/gal(s) sucked out)

Grade b
 
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Wed Nov 23, 2011, 11:15 AM
(#18)
IroncladMerc's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 581
I'll leave if I've doubled up, or if people start leaving the table. If I am VPP hunting, I will leave if the fish or fishes who were generating the most action leave. Then I'll load up another high average pot table.
 
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Wed Nov 23, 2011, 12:31 PM
(#19)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,604
Dear Cairn Destop,

I like your advice but was wondering if this was more geared towards Limit poker rather than No Limit.

If so how would you adapt your advice for a no Limit game?

Grade b
 
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Wed Nov 23, 2011, 01:07 PM
(#20)
mytton's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 181
Nice discussion. A couple of things to add from my experiences... in truth a couple of weaknesses I am trying to overcome:

I'm playing mostly micro cash games and usually switch tables quite a bit when the fish leave and the regs swarm in. I typically play 2, 3 or 4 tables, depending on how I am feeling.

I am not a fan of auto-topup because it helps my confidence to see at a glance whether I am up or down at a given table. I find I am unnerved by the thought of small uncounted losses totting up as the topup kicks in repeatedly. Another effect of the same issue is a tendency to stay at a table if I am just a little down from my starting stack, purely in the hope of pulling myself up into profit there before closing it down. This is clearly not optimal and often costs me more money chasing the losses... if the table is not being kind to me I would be better closing it and opening another. Maybe I should grit my teeth and start using auto topup after all. Certainly the general lesson, which is easier stated than heeded, is to be less concerned about winning/losing at any given table and just concentrate on trying to play good poker. Plenty of time after the session to tot up winnings/losings.

Secondly, if I do double up or similar at a table, I have a tendency to pull in my horns and play tighter there, or maybe just close the table altogether, to protect my winnings. In hindsight, if the table was soft and easily exploitable, I think in fact the right thing to do would have been to stay and try to win more.Another case where the right thing is easier said than done.

I dare say I am not the only player battling these issues. I'd love to know how others overcome them.
 

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