Home / Community / Forum / Poker Education / Poker Education & Beginners Questions / Old Hand Analysis Section /

my own fault or just bad luck?

my own fault or just bad luck? - Tue Nov 22, 2011, 05:11 AM
PokerPest72's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 247
Has the title says, i checked the turn for pot control and damn that river lol i assumed there would be a case ace i know my first mistake was not to isolate but this guy ended up having a 90% vp at one point, perhaps i should of just shipped them preflop?

the river came an ace its missing abit the replayer is

Last edited by PokerPest72; Tue Nov 22, 2011 at 05:16 AM.. Reason: update
Tue Nov 22, 2011, 05:17 AM
Puciek's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 771
I don't like pref call, this is a great spot for a solid raise to build a nice pot, thin the field and gain betting lead to the flop.

As played, leading flop is bad. It is a dry board, you are yelling "I GOT AN A AND I AM SCARED SHIT" with that bet, i go for c/c OTF as we are really strong here.

OTT falls a blank (for most part), we have to continue our aggression, so push all-in and close your eyes since he got only 1,7k left. OTR - shove
Tue Nov 22, 2011, 05:44 AM
PokerPest72's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 247
yeah i agree with my bad play preflop but i dont think my bet size was to bad but perhaps i'm wrong again there ty m8, i bet roughly 39% of the pot is that way to much 4 handed what bet would you of stuck down there if u dont mind responding once more
Tue Nov 22, 2011, 08:06 AM
pteridophyta's Avatar
Since: Aug 2011
Posts: 96
I would have shipped it pre or made a raise too something like 800-900 to put villains to stack decision there and then. It looks like they might have called regardless in which case I'd ship any flop.

I reckon the bet sizing on such a dry flop with villains stack size is fine if you plan to get it all in on the turn.

Just get it in on the turn. Your never folding river anyway.
Tue Nov 22, 2011, 09:18 AM
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
Pre flop here, you really do not want to be calling along with the sort of hand that may only flop 1 pair.
If you held something like 66/77, or JTs/T9s, I could see flatting here. The reason why I say that is:

1) You are pretty deep here. If you must fold 400-some chips to an aggro move into a dry pot, it isn't the end of the world for your stack.

2) With hands like small to mid pp, you will tend to flop either a BIG hand (a set), or have a hand that is easy to get away from with action behind you; I'm not saying it is a "auto-limp" with those mid pp though. If there is a chance one of the limpers may limp strong BECAUSE he is aware there is a good chance the SB stands, then a limp is an option.

(Note: versus 2 limpers, I'd still prefer to RAISE hands like 66/77 to iso on the all in; that gets them to leave their dead money in the pot if they fold, and you are probably ahead of their limp ranges).

3) Hands like high middle connectors are decent limp hands for you too, because those may find themselves flopping a strong DRAW in a dry pot. The dry pot situaions are where you will tend to get to see free cards quite often, and that makes playing draws, even oop, pretty cheap (usually).

With a big Ace, you have to factor in that the late position limpers are not very strong at all.
This makes your AJ play a lot better.
Also, the SB is so short, he certainly does not need a monster hand on which to stand.
If you can fold out the 2 limpers, the dead money ADDS roughly 66% to the amount you may win just by out running the SB without any worries.
That all argues for RAISING with a hand like AJ in the BB...

You did not though...

It goes to the flop 4 way (1 all in), and the pot is 1724.
You flop top pair on a pretty dry board.
You bet 672, or about 38% of the pot...why?

As suggesed here, a check/call line on the flop is an option, but I'm not really sure I like that a ton.
It is a dry pot, and in those sorts of situations some opponents will check behind with hands like 88/77/55, because they recognize there is little benefit in betting people off the pot if the all in holds an Ace. There IS a hance that some of those middle pp that may have limped pre will call a bet by you. For that reaosn alone I'd prefer to lead out immediately.

The hand you flop is one you should be looking to get value from, but it is not so strong that you want to play it with any sort of real trickery.
There ARE times where a 40% pot bet is good, and not all of those are necessarily in situations where you flop a "monster", but is this one of them?
Let's look at your sizing decision...

By your bet, you make the pot 2396.
If the shortest live stack were to jam all in, you'd be faced with a call of 1897 in a pot of 4965, or a price of 2.6 to 1 to call.
If that had happened, what would you do?

If you cannot answer that question clearly, you really should consider betting MORE, at least half pot if not slightly more, or checking.
That clarifies your decision by making your call a lot easier, and serves to make you less bluffable. Yes, a larger bet may cost you MORE if a live stack out flopped you, but it losing a little more up front may cost you less by the end of the hand. Next...

If you bet the amount you do in order to induce a shove so you can FOLD, then why did you enter the pot at all with AJ?
That sort of line, a check/fold after flopping top pair, would only be reasonable if you are facing a very TIGHT opponent, one that would make your AJ un-tenable in the first place.

This means you should really have solid info to be thinking about folding a top pair hit here to an opponent.
If you have that sort of solid info on an opponent, do you really need to bet to induce a move you can fold to, or can you check, and fold to a bet as easily and a lot cheaper?

If you bet this amount in order to induce a shoe so you can CALL, there are worse things you can do really.
But in truth, that sort of tricky move needs some solid info to back it up, such as an opponent being highly prone to "attacking" small-ish bets.
As this is a dry pot situation, it is not un-common for opponents to fold out ANY marginal hands. This means the sorts of hands that may pay off this bet in normal situations to peel another street are much less likely to pay you off here. Also, opponents are much less prone to continue deeply in the hand in dry pot situations.
All that means that if you are going to get value ehre form lesser hands, you probably need to get it earlier. A bet of half pot or a bit more does that for you better than the sizing you choose.

Before you think I am slagging you, please let me note: to this point all the things you've done in the hand are, at most, "small mistakes".

They are the sorts of things which lead to small losses of value, and are not likely to "kill" your stack unless you fail to recognize the implications of your actions.
I point them out though because they are the things you should try to AVOID, as part of palying your best poker is getitng the maximum value possible out of a given situation.

Moving on...

When you get flatted by someone on the flop, I like your turn check to be honest.
In this spot by not raising pre flop to iso, there is a decent chance you've let baby pp or rag Aces stay around.
This means there is a reasonable chance your han may be beaten.
The guy who flat called you on the flop has put himself pretty deeply into the pot (37% invested), so he probably is not on air.
At the micro stakes though, you will tend to see a LOT of players making the mistake of over-valuing their holdings (especially rag As), so while not an immediate sign you are beat, it is worth enough to CHECK and see what he is going to do here.

When you check though, that villain launches 1100 of his remaining 1897 into the pot.
You call.
Again I ask: why?

This is a spot where he is basically telling you he has enough he is willing to stack off; I mean do you honestly think he is folding to "save" a bit under 800 chips off a 3k start stack?

That means you are put to a decision on this turn: either move all in, or FOLD.

You cannot give him the OPTION to possibly hit the river to beat you for free by not putting him all in (if he is behind), as you are making a crying call for the rest of his stack almost always if he does suck out (assuming he was behind, which he wasn't as we see from the results). You also cannot give him any REASON to save the remainder of his stack if he is behind, such as if a scare card appears on the river to cause him to check behind a river check by you.

So you really should have put him in pretty often on that turn, not just check/called...

Overall, this is a pretty bad hand for you really.
You really didn't make any MAJOR mistakes, and the value in your holding was enough to cause you to lose a good bit if someone were to suck out on you.
The only thing you may really want to work on is being a little more aggressive EARLY in the pot, as in this spot the 2 LP limpers probably did not have near the strength of your holding.

Hope it helps...
Tue Nov 22, 2011, 09:28 AM
royalraise85's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 26,020
(Community Coordinator)
I'd definitely make a note on the villain. He limp-called preflop, flat-called postflop and then comes out betting almost half his stack when he hits two pair on 4th Street.

With your holding I would probably have 3bet and not called pre-flop and bet out a bit stronger post-flop. Maybe about 80% of the pot.

Tue Nov 22, 2011, 09:52 AM
PokerPest72's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 247
thanks for all the advise btw i dont think your slagging me in any way your giving me very valuable advise and i will listen and i will try to learn, i played this hand so bad i'm going to stand in the corner and get my wife beat me

thanks for everybodys input its really good advise, and even though ive been playing poker for quiet a while now and thought i was ok at it u guys are spotting leaks left right and centre i feel like the titanic lol i can tell u guys just how good i think pso is..... FANTASTIC!

Alot of things i am doing at the moment is like bad driving habits, i'm going to try and correct them but ive been playing the same way for so long now, its gonna take a while to stop all my bad plays

Thank you very much.

Getting PokerStars is easy: download and install the PokerStars game software, create your free player account, and validate your email address. Clicking on the download poker button will lead to the installation of compatible poker software on your PC of 51.7 MB, which will enable you to register and play poker on the PokerStars platform. To uninstall PokerStars use the Windows uninstaller: click Start > Control Panel and then select Add or Remove programs > Select PokerStars and click Uninstall or Remove.

Copyright (c) PokerSchoolOnline.com. All rights reserved, Rational Group, Douglas Bay Complex, King Edward Road, Onchan, Isle of Man, IM3 1DZ. You can email us on support@pokerschoolonline.com