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erm? - Wed Nov 23, 2011, 04:01 AM
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PokerPest72's Avatar
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i just dont know if i played this right or wrong.TT is in the top 5% yes? so i raised hoping to narrow the field alot it was very early on in the mtt

 
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Wed Nov 23, 2011, 04:23 AM
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Puciek's Avatar
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Pref is ok
Checking OTF is ok
Calling turn is good, no point in semibluffing here
Checking river is ok too, no point in bluffing.
 
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Wed Nov 23, 2011, 04:40 AM
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EdinFreeMan's Avatar
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I have two questions PokerPest.

What was the MTT, a freeroll, or buy-in at what level?

Did you check the hand history to see what other cards were mucked? They may have been ahead of you with a bigger pair to the board or even 2 pairs.

As you say it is early in an MTT, and give no reads on the table villains, your opening raise is fine if you expect it to achieve what you want, thinning the field. You do not want to play TT in a 4-way pot if you can avoid it, as any overcards on the board will kill your equity. If this is s freeroll or very cheap micro your raise will often not achieve this, and with the odds you have to call you might be better calling to try to hit your set on the flop, (set mining) rather than building the pot.

[btw pokerstove puts TT in the top 2.3% of starting hands.]

Ed from Edinburgh - EdinFreeMan
 
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Wed Nov 23, 2011, 04:48 AM
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Puciek's Avatar
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Originally Posted by EdinFreeMan View Post
Did you check the hand history to see what other cards were mucked? They may have been ahead of you with a bigger pair to the board or even 2 pairs.
It doesn't matter whatsoever and doing so will only make you play worse.

Last edited by Puciek; Wed Nov 23, 2011 at 04:51 AM..
 
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Wed Nov 23, 2011, 04:56 AM
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Originally Posted by EdinFreeMan View Post
As you say it is early in an MTT, and give no reads on the table villains, your opening raise is fine if you expect it to achieve what you want, thinning the field. You do not want to play TT in a 4-way pot if you can avoid it, as any overcards on the board will kill your equity. If this is s freeroll or very cheap micro your raise will often not achieve this, and with the odds you have to call you might be better calling to try to hit your set on the flop, (set mining) rather than building the pot.
This is another fallacy that comes from not understanding the concept of EV. Betting pref with TT gets GREAT value if whole table calls you with their trash. It's very very very PROFITABLE PLAY. A lot more than limping it.
 
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Wed Nov 23, 2011, 05:08 AM
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EdinFreeMan's Avatar
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Originally Posted by Puciek View Post
It doesn't matter whatsoever and doing so will only make you play worse.
Early in an MTT with plenty of chips left you should always check what hands your opponents just mucked. Take notes for later hands, or if they are regulars, for future tournaments.

I agree it makes no difference to the outcome of this hand or how you play it in this situation in future.

Ed from Edinburgh - EdinFreeMan
 
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Wed Nov 23, 2011, 05:30 AM
(#7)
Puciek's Avatar
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Originally Posted by EdinFreeMan View Post
Early in an MTT with plenty of chips left you should always check what hands your opponents just mucked. Take notes for later hands, or if they are regulars, for future tournaments.

I agree it makes no difference to the outcome of this hand or how you play it in this situation in future.

Ed from Edinburgh - EdinFreeMan
This is going to be another "me vs horrible notes" eh? What hands here can be played extraordinary bad that would make them noteworth?
 
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Wed Nov 23, 2011, 07:44 AM
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its was about 4 hands into the mtt im not going to commit with tens i have no reads on any 1, i assumed that 3x +1bb for each limper was correct, this was a 45 seat sng 1$ buy in and its the same game i won, i find the beggining stage very hard theres some right maniacs out there and u can expect alot of bad beats, ive been in the same situation with aces before now and shipped them trying to protect my aces only to get 4 or 5 callers and gettign crushed by junk hands.
 
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Wed Nov 23, 2011, 07:58 AM
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Puciek's Avatar
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Originally Posted by PokerPest72 View Post
its was about 4 hands into the mtt im not going to commit with tens i have no reads on any 1, i assumed that 3x +1bb for each limper was correct, this was a 45 seat sng 1$ buy in and its the same game i won, i find the beggining stage very hard theres some right maniacs out there and u can expect alot of bad beats, ive been in the same situation with aces before now and shipped them trying to protect my aces only to get 4 or 5 callers and gettign crushed by junk hands.
Bad beats are very good for your bottom line, about time you learn that.
 
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Wed Nov 23, 2011, 08:50 AM
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maybe for your bottom line but not for mine lol im prone to tilt ( something im working on)
 
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Wed Nov 23, 2011, 11:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Puciek View Post
Pref is ok
Checking OTF is ok
Calling turn is good, no point in semibluffing here
Checking river is ok too, no point in bluffing.
I totally agree.

If someone else didn't bet the turn before you, I'd have thrown out a bet to see where I was in the hand... but with someone else already doing it, just calling it is fine.
 
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Wed Nov 23, 2011, 01:32 PM
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thanks JWK24
 
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Wed Nov 23, 2011, 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by PokerPest72 View Post
maybe for your bottom line but not for mine lol im prone to tilt ( something im working on)
He simply means bad beat = good descision, good descisions = long term profit, by putting it in that context tilting by these things SHOULD go away. They actually put a smile on my face as I say nice hand sir.
 
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Wed Nov 23, 2011, 03:45 PM
(#14)
Puciek's Avatar
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Originally Posted by mtnestegg View Post
He simply means bad beat = good descision, good descisions = long term profit, by putting it in that context tilting by these things SHOULD go away. They actually put a smile on my face as I say nice hand sir.
And that's the right approach. If you take a bad beats often - this means you play good and will turn a profit in the long run. Knowing difference between bad play and bad beat is whole different matter though.
 
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Wed Nov 23, 2011, 09:39 PM
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Thanks guys
 
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Wed Nov 23, 2011, 10:00 PM
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Grade b's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Puciek View Post
This is another fallacy that comes from not understanding the concept of EV. Betting pref with TT gets GREAT value if whole table calls you with their trash. It's very very very PROFITABLE PLAY. A lot more than limping it.
Can you back this statement up?

Pokerstove tells me that if the other 8 players all call with a random hand, which is what you seem to be rooting for i have 19% equity if i hold 10 10.

this gives me i 1 in 5 chance to win the hand which this early in the torny i'm not very happy with.

So i have to agree with Ed here (even if he did play 7,2 earlier this week)

Of course I am open to persagion

Grade b
 
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Thu Nov 24, 2011, 01:38 AM
(#17)
Puciek's Avatar
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Posts: 771
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Originally Posted by Grade b View Post
Can you back this statement up?

Pokerstove tells me that if the other 8 players all call with a random hand, which is what you seem to be rooting for i have 19% equity if i hold 10 10.

this gives me i 1 in 5 chance to win the hand which this early in the torny i'm not very happy with.

So i have to agree with Ed here (even if he did play 7,2 earlier this week)

Of course I am open to persagion

Grade b
And did pokerstove tell you that you got 19% chance to win 8x times your stack, not just a double up? So 81% of time you go broke (lets say that starting stack is 10 for the sake of math) and 19% you build up to 80. EV = (81%*-10)+(19%*80)=-8,1+15,2=+7,1
So with every all-in like that you earn 7 chips of your 10 chip stack (70% increase by EV).

So as you see, I was right in first place and that fallacy comes from simply not understanding wht EV means.
 
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Thu Nov 24, 2011, 10:47 AM
(#18)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,604
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Originally Posted by Puciek View Post
And did pokerstove tell you that you got 19% chance to win 8x times your stack, not just a double up? So 81% of time you go broke (lets say that starting stack is 10 for the sake of math) and 19% you build up to 80. EV = (81%*-10)+(19%*80)=-8,1+15,2=+7,1
So with every all-in like that you earn 7 chips of your 10 chip stack (70% increase by EV).

So as you see, I was right in first place and that fallacy comes from simply not understanding wht EV means.
I think this is a better stratergy in a cash game.

So yes positive EV in turns of chips over a long run but not Profitable in turns of a Tourniment Cash, unless the stars line up too.

Then i can walk away with the cash, in a Tornie i am going to come up against others when have lucked up too. So it is not a case of ooo i got chips so i will cash/make final table/win because of other races yet to come.

So I will not be using this hopefully statergy. I do not say noone else should us it in fact i would like everyone to try it at all tables i am at please.

At which point is it not +ev so they know which cards not to shove.

Grade b

Last edited by Grade b; Thu Nov 24, 2011 at 10:54 AM..
 
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Thu Nov 24, 2011, 10:51 AM
(#19)
Puciek's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 771
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grade b View Post
I think this is a better stratergy in a cash game.

Then i can walk away with the cash, in a Tornie i am going to come up against others when have lucked up too. So it is not a case of ooo i got chips so i will cash/make final table/win because of other races yet to come.

So I will not be using this hopefully statergy. I do not say noone else should us it in fact i would like everyone to try it at all tables i am at please.

At which point is it not +ev so they know which cards not to shove.

Grade b
So you pass a 70% ev spot.... Fine.
What amount of ev you need to get to actually commit? Because it's hard to get past 70%, heck AA vs 27o is just 87%

At least you are safe from zombie invasion i guess, it's a benefit
 
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Thu Nov 24, 2011, 11:11 AM
(#20)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,604
Quote:
Originally Posted by Puciek View Post
So you pass a 70% ev spot.... Fine.
What amount of ev you need to get to actually commit? Because it's hard to get past 70%, heck AA vs 27o is just 87%

At least you are safe from zombie invasion i guess, it's a benefit
Why do people think that if a Human was ever Reanimated it would require someones Brain.

4th hand in a Tornie and i have 10 10 and no reads I do not shove. If i was last to act and everyone had shoved to me and i had 10 10 no i would not call. Becuase the chance of all 8 other players being that bad and really having "random" hands is slim, which would put a dent in "ideal theoretical" model.

Grade b
p.s.
I do not like that you imply just because i disagree with how you would play that i do not have a brain (did you guess).
 

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