Home / Community / Forum / Poker Education / Texas Hold'Em Tournament Section (MTTs & STTs) /

weak play?

Old
Default
weak play? - Wed Nov 23, 2011, 06:00 AM
(#1)
PokerPest72's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 247
BronzeStar
was this weak play by me? i think it turned out a good fold in the end but i didn't know that at the time this is the same mtt as my tt eval hand, the comeback kid finished 1st

 
Old
Default
Wed Nov 23, 2011, 06:04 AM
(#2)
Puciek's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 771
No way i am folding 66 here, i ship it and close my eyes.
 
Old
Default
Wed Nov 23, 2011, 06:28 AM
(#3)
PokerPest72's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 247
BronzeStar
hehe

opp on the button was a pretty solid player, but the opp that shipped them in, i ended up heads up with him and he shipped all in 7 hands in a row, i decided to make a stand with kt and called him he turned over a7 and i got lucky on the river.
 
Old
Default
Wed Nov 23, 2011, 06:52 AM
(#4)
XxTiberxX's Avatar
Since: Sep 2011
Posts: 374
correct play would be to fold here. button raises 4x means he has good cards. 66 is not a very good hand at all, any 2 overcards and its a coinflip, an overpair and ur problaby busto.

you saved alot of chips not calling, if you called and the BB goes all-in you have an even harder decision to make and problaby fold anyway.
 
Old
Default
Wed Nov 23, 2011, 06:57 AM
(#5)
Puciek's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 771
Quote:
Originally Posted by XxTiberxX View Post
correct play would be to fold here. button raises 4x means he has good cards. 66 is not a very good hand at all, any 2 overcards and its a coinflip, an overpair and ur problaby busto.

you saved alot of chips not calling, if you called and the BB goes all-in you have an even harder decision to make and problaby fold anyway.
Wow just wow with folding 66 in 3 way pot when you got chip lead by 4x over OR and agains the other player.
And what a pro read lol with that 4x == good cards
And yes, he is a busto to stack that is only 23% of his
 
Old
Default
Wed Nov 23, 2011, 06:57 AM
(#6)
EdinFreeMan's Avatar
Since: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,540
The fold here is fine by me. You are trying to get heads up with either opponent, with a chip lead. With 66 I would certainly not call out of position against the button especially if I thought the BB might ship it over the top, so fold or ship it are probably the only options.

Nice win.

(I am assuming this was your $1.00 45 player sitngo)

Good luck

Ed from Edinburgh - EdinFreeMan
 
Old
Default
Wed Nov 23, 2011, 07:22 AM
(#7)
PokerPest72's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 247
BronzeStar
ty all for your replies and yes ed my mindset was im the chip leader why get silly out of postion, now if i had 10bb left i would of shipped them in but why damage my lead at this point, i dont know thats why i posted this, alot of players might call it a weak play but i took into consideration i was the chip leader and wanted to keep this advantage heads up. BTW ed yes 45 seat 1$ sng.
 
Old
Default
Wed Nov 23, 2011, 07:30 AM
(#8)
Puciek's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 771
Quote:
Originally Posted by PokerPest72 View Post
ty all for your replies and yes ed my mindset was im the chip leader why get silly out of postion, now if i had 10bb left i would of shipped them in but why damage my lead at this point, i dont know thats why i posted this, alot of players might call it a weak play but i took into consideration i was the chip leader and wanted to keep this advantage heads up. BTW ed yes 45 seat 1$ sng.
If you are going to fold PP in that spot, you don't want to play HU with stack that is anything beside "ship it blind pref and hope to get lucky". And your deep stack is not really that deep even, especially with bb coming at you every 3 hands.
 
Old
Default
Wed Nov 23, 2011, 11:20 AM
(#9)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,802
(Super-Moderator)
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by PokerPest72 View Post
ty all for your replies and yes ed my mindset was im the chip leader why get silly out of postion, now if i had 10bb left i would of shipped them in but why damage my lead at this point, i dont know thats why i posted this, alot of players might call it a weak play but i took into consideration i was the chip leader and wanted to keep this advantage heads up. BTW ed yes 45 seat 1$ sng.
If I was in position and was only up against the shorter stack, I'd have shipped it... but OOP, while you could play it, I'd rather fold and pick a better situation, in position and be sure to keep the chip lead too. If you ship it OOP and the larger stack calls too, 66 doesn't play very well in a 3-way pot.
 
Old
Default
Wed Nov 23, 2011, 12:01 PM
(#10)
Puciek's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 771
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWK24 View Post
If I was in position and was only up against the shorter stack, I'd have shipped it... but OOP, while you could play it, I'd rather fold and pick a better situation, in position and be sure to keep the chip lead too. If you ship it OOP and the larger stack calls too, 66 doesn't play very well in a 3-way pot.
I stand confused.
You are only against the shorter stack, BB is a passive bystander and is going to fold 98% of the time (so him picking a hand is one of the worst bad beats one can get in poker).
But since we are OOP, you woudn't push... ? How does position influence pushing?
 
Old
Default
Wed Nov 23, 2011, 12:14 PM
(#11)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,802
(Super-Moderator)
BronzeStar
you don't know the BB is a bystander, as they haven't acted yet.
If I'm in position and know that one is out of the hand already, then I'm more apt to shove because I know I'm only up against one opp. What I would not want, is to be up against both of them with 66. Against 1 opp only, yes, I'll play it.... in a 3-way pot.. I'll pass.
 
Old
Default
Wed Nov 23, 2011, 12:20 PM
(#12)
Puciek's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 771
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWK24 View Post
you don't know the BB is a bystander, as they haven't acted yet.
If I'm in position and know that one is out of the hand already, then I'm more apt to shove because I know I'm only up against one opp. What I would not want, is to be up against both of them with 66. Against 1 opp only, yes, I'll play it.... in a 3-way pot.. I'll pass.
Yea, i know. We got whole 2% of chance that BB will wake up. Let's fold on that base, sounds brilliant
 
Old
Default
Wed Nov 23, 2011, 01:20 PM
(#13)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
I have to be honest here, Folding 66 to a min raise on the BTN by the shortest stack 3 handed is pretty weak.

I would favor raising, making it around 4800 to 6000 to go.
This amount puts puts pressure on the short stack insofar as it places him in a shove or fold spot.
It also clarfies a call for you if he does shove.

Your actions in order of preference (least desirable to most desirable) I'd say would be:

1) CALL

Flat calling with a hand like 66 here leaves enough in the stack of the BTN to possibly push you off when the almost certain over cards appear on the flop.
This also has you invested in the pot if the BB should happen to wake up to the re-steal possibilities; calling off better than 1/3rd of your stack on 66 in HOPES of finding a race would just be bad.
So very little good can come of you flating along.

2) FOLD

Folding saves you chips, but 3 handed do you really WANT to fold away a pocket pair?
66 is in the top 16% of hands, so there really is a good chance you are going to be on the best hand here.
Yes, there is a chance the shortest stack is min raising on a truly BIG hand, but in a 3 handed situation where everyone is getting short-ish in relation to the blinds, the chance a small raise means strength is much less than at a full ring table on deeper money situations.
Folding does not put you at risk, and you really do not NEED to "win" the MTT on this particular hand, but you've also not got a ton of time to wait on BIGGER hands either.

3) RAISE LARGE, 6000+ to All In.

This raise size puts in enough chips to represent a threat to the BB, and it takes away any shot he has at re-stealing.
If you totally lack reads on your opponents, it is not a bad idea to do this with a hand like 66.
Courting a race for stacks, and applying maximum pressure, is not necessarily 'terrible' if you lack the info you need to play post flop effectively (on un-paired hands), and if you lack an ability to read opposing push/fold ranges and 3bet ranges on your opponents.
Jerry Yang recognized that he was a a skill disadvantage versus many of his final table opponents the year he won the WSOP ME, and used this exact "big pot" strategy to take down the bracelet, so it can be somewhat effective in evening out some skill disadvantages you may have in post flop play.
There is however a small chance the BB wakes up with something far stronger than 66, and in that case you run the risk of losing over 1/3rd of your stack.


4) RAISE, to an amount between 4800 and 6000 (I'd lean more toward the top end).

Raising this amount puts the BTN into a shove or fold spot, and tests his willingness to bust out here strongly.
You are certainly willing to race for stacks agaisnt him, as a win moves you up to a lock 2nd place money, and doubling him does not cost youthe chip lead.
It also sends a clear message to the BB that a re-steal shot here may not be the best idea, as the pot will grow large enough that you will be getting close to a "critical" 2 to 1 odds needed to call a jam by the BB if all you had were 2 live cards.
The key thing though is, it does not stick you QUITE hard enough that you cannot fold if the BB jams.
That means you could possibly fold out of the way with only a 10 to 15% stack loss (if the BB jams), and have a solid chance to get into a HU situation.
This, to me, would be the best choice for you, and gives you the widest range of options.

Bottom line is pretty simple:

You have a hand plenty strong enough to play for stacks against the shortest stack here, but 66 is a touch too weak to want to do the same agaisnt the larger BB stack.
You really benefit by sending a message that you may NOT fold if the BB jams, in order to make yourself less bluffable by him in this hand.
You also benefit by putting pressure on the BTN that forces him to play for stacks.
If the BB folds, and the BTN jams, you should be happy to call for the rest of his chips holding 66.

Hope it helps.

Last edited by JDean; Wed Nov 23, 2011 at 01:24 PM..
 
Old
Default
Wed Nov 23, 2011, 01:51 PM
(#14)
PokerPest72's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 247
BronzeStar
thanks for all advise here a mixed bag hehe i suppose a good 1 for debate, take into consideration
i'm changing from a LAG cash player to a TAG torny player i still got a few things to iron out.
But i do feel that JWK24 got where my head was in the hand, thanks to both mods for there eval and all u pso members
 
Old
Default
Wed Nov 23, 2011, 03:54 PM
(#15)
Puciek's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 771
This calls for math gods. If we bet 6k and he shoves over it, pot will be roughly 23000 and we have 9000 to call (estimates, i almost always use head to do the math while posting analyses). This is roughly 2,55 on our money so can we REALLY fold? Not unless we think that he does that ONLY with PP, but if he does that with AK, AQ, AA, KK - we have to call (and his range is wider than that).

So i stand by my shove, it will make sure that he won't get frisky with an ugly bluff.
 
Old
Default
Wed Nov 23, 2011, 04:44 PM
(#16)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Puciek View Post
This calls for math gods. If we bet 6k and he shoves over it, pot will be roughly 23000 and we have 9000 to call (estimates, i almost always use head to do the math while posting analyses). This is roughly 2,55 on our money so can we REALLY fold? Not unless we think that he does that ONLY with PP, but if he does that with AK, AQ, AA, KK - we have to call (and his range is wider than that).

So i stand by my shove, it will make sure that he won't get frisky with an ugly bluff.
I never said your shove in pre line is bad, it can be effective, but you are rarely better than a race (almost never) if the BB calls. I'm not liking a race for that much of my stack if the BTN folds himself out.

By raising the amount I am suggesting, you are radically narrowing the jam raise of the BB since he can possibly get himself into a HU situation by not trying anything out of line. That alone should ENSURE you are never better than a race if he jams.

If the BB jams AND the BTN comes along, I'll be honest we are probably forced to call, if only in hopes of racing for the side pot created. The thing is, it is pretty likely 1 of them will go out at least in this scenario, while there is zero chance we will go out. We will also not be on less than about a 24K stack, and will have a good chance heads up.

If we fold out the BTN though, and it comes down to a choice of racing off our full stack or keeping a near 10k lead by folding, I am probably going to not take the race a decent bit of the time (although I would if the BB is very bluff-y).

BTW...

Your ranging is skewed a bit, as if he is jamming AQo, he is probably jamming QQ/JJ too.

I input a pretty wide range for the BB to jam on of 88+, AJ+, and KQ. 7 hands we are racing, and 7 pp in that range. Our equity is only about 40% for a good chunk of our stack. You need MORE un-paired hands than pp in the jam range to make it a viable call with 66, and a greatly narrowed jam raise brought about by our raise probably does not give that.

It isn't a cash game afterall, so just because we have 2.6 to 1 for a 1.5 to 1 equity does not mean we like calling in what may or may not be a race; at least not BEFORE we have 2nd place $ locked up.

One thing though, your comments have adjusted my thinking a bit...

It may be better to stay toward the LOW END of that raise amount range, unless we are willing to call.

TY.

Last edited by JDean; Wed Nov 23, 2011 at 04:52 PM..
 
Old
Default
Wed Nov 23, 2011, 04:49 PM
(#17)
Puciek's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 771
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDean View Post
I never said your shove in pre line is bad, it can be effective, but you are rarely better than a race (almost never) if the BB calls. I'm not liking a race for that much of my stack if the BTN folds himself out.

By raising the amount I am suggesting, you are radically narrowing the jam raise of the BB since he can possibly get himself into a HU situation by not trying anything out of line. That alone should ENSURE you are never better than a race if he jams.

If the BB jams AND the BTN comes along, I'll be honest we are probably forced to call, if only in hopes of racing for the side pot created. The thing is, it is pretty likely 1 of them will go out at least in this scenario, while there is zero chance we will go out. We will also not be on less than about a 24K stack, and will have a good chance heads up.

If we fold out the BTN though, and it comes down to a choice of racing off our full stack or keeping a near 10k lead by folding, I am probably going to not take the race a decent bit of the time (although I would if the BB is very bluff-y).
You forget that right now every place now got not only EV but also EV$. If we bust a player here we get more $, if we lose - we still got decent shot at that extra $ so flipping here is mighty fine with that added value.
So yes, i am happy with that race. And chance of BB calling is minimal (he will NOT stack off with anything below AJ , and thats very narrow and odd chance range) and as already said, we don't mind "race at best" scenario here at all. It's similar to when you are HU, with 100x chip advantage - you just go for the bad beat kill because odds favor you, by a lot.

You are forced to call even if just BB shoves and BU folds (2,55 on your money, no way to fold PP to that), if BU comes along - now this is even better for us.


On personal note from my microMTTs times, I used to all-bluff in this spots a lot with great success reading people well that this raise is weak as shit (if they had the goods, they would just ship it). And any good player will most likely pick on that you are weak, and push you here without much of hand.

Last edited by Puciek; Wed Nov 23, 2011 at 04:55 PM..
 
Old
Default
Wed Nov 23, 2011, 05:02 PM
(#18)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Puciek View Post
You forget that right now every place now got not only EV but also EV$. If we bust a player here we get more $, if we lose - we still got decent shot at that extra $ so flipping here is mighty fine with that added value.
So yes, i am happy with that race. And chance of BB calling is minimal (he will NOT stack off with anything below AJ , and thats very narrow and odd chance range) and as already said, we don't mind "race at best" scenario here at all. It's similar to when you are HU, with 100x chip advantage - you just go for the bad beat kill because odds favor you, by a lot.

You are forced to call even if just BB shoves and BU folds (2,55 on your money, no way to fold PP to that), if BU comes along - now this is even better for us.


On personal note from my microMTTs times, I used to all-bluff in this spots a lot with great success reading people well that this raise is weak as shit (if they had the goods, they would just ship it). And any good player will most likely pick on that you are weak, and push you here without much of hand.
Fact is, we lack reads as the OP didn't give them.

If I feel the BB has the skillz to ID a solid bluff spot here, AND enough skill to read me as possibly leaving room to fold after getting 2.6 to 1to call, then I'll be really honest I think I'd prefer your shove line. The reason I say that is that is for the same reason Yang did his schtick at the FT; hard to out play guys who will see a stop n go spot, or a re-shove spot, AND have the heart to pull the trigger.
 
Old
Default
Thu Nov 24, 2011, 04:03 AM
(#19)
Puciek's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 771
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDean View Post
Fact is, we lack reads as the OP didn't give them.

If I feel the BB has the skillz to ID a solid bluff spot here, AND enough skill to read me as possibly leaving room to fold after getting 2.6 to 1to call, then I'll be really honest I think I'd prefer your shove line. The reason I say that is that is for the same reason Yang did his schtick at the FT; hard to out play guys who will see a stop n go spot, or a re-shove spot, AND have the heart to pull the trigger.
Question here is, what is the advantage to betting 6k to shoving if we are going to call 3-bet? Only reason to do so would be if we fold (which we REALLY should not).
 
Old
Default
Thu Nov 24, 2011, 01:03 PM
(#20)
PokerPest72's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 247
BronzeStar
wow u guys are like cyborgs how the hell have i ever won anything at poker, think i,ll be sticking to micro stakes until the day i die lol avoiding you walking talking robots hehe, just how many players are out there like u guys?
 

Getting PokerStars is easy: download and install the PokerStars game software, create your free player account, and validate your email address. Clicking on the download poker button will lead to the installation of compatible poker software on your PC of 51.7 MB, which will enable you to register and play poker on the PokerStars platform. To uninstall PokerStars use the Windows uninstaller: click Start > Control Panel and then select Add or Remove programs > Select PokerStars and click Uninstall or Remove.

Copyright (c) PokerSchoolOnline.com. All rights reserved, Rational Group, Douglas Bay Complex, King Edward Road, Onchan, Isle of Man, IM3 1DZ. You can email us on support@pokerschoolonline.com