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Max Value

Max Value - Fri Nov 25, 2011, 07:45 AM
chuckkky's Avatar
Since: Dec 2010
Posts: 913
Hi just wondering how to get max value from a flop like this,

This is one hand earlier.
Fri Nov 25, 2011, 08:15 AM
XxTiberxX's Avatar
Since: Sep 2011
Posts: 374
AK nice raise and C-bet

AJ, villain min-raises = weakness, re-raise pre-flop and make a c-bet post flop just like you did the hand before, they might not beleave you got the nuts because you did exacly the same in the hand before and theres a big chance they called all your value bets down to the river.

Poker is about aggression and know when to fold. if you keep doing the same theyve seen you bluffing, the next time you do the exact same thing they will call or even raise because of your bluff and thats the exact spot you can make alot of money in.
Fri Nov 25, 2011, 10:02 AM
TrumpinJoe's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 4,557
Unless the raiser is a tricky/trappy type a 3 bet pre would be an option.

Unless raiser is a frequent c-bettor you donk (bet into a preflop raise) the flop.

As played bet 1/3 pot on the turn and again on the river if called.
Fri Nov 25, 2011, 11:03 AM
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,809
my guess is the hand before he had a small pair that didn't hit the flop.

You could 3-bet preflop, but just calling their raise is ok too. I notice the opp likes to min bet, which isn't that great of a play. If in their shoes, they should make a normal raise or get out of the hand.. but that's their choice.

I agree with TJ that if either opp usually c-bets, then check to them and let them do the betting for you (smooth call any bet they make). However, if they don't c-bet very often, it's best to put out a bet that you think both opps will call. You do not want to chase either of them out of the hand.

Same for turn and river... bet whatever you think they'll call. You want the opps to call and not to drop. I'd have put out 500 or so on the turn, instead of your min bet. You want to build a pot that will entice them to call more on the river. The 1250 bet is a better one to make if the pot's larger (or you're 100% sure they'll call). With the pot size as it was, I'd have tried about 900.

The key in these situations is to bet whatever you think they'll call... and no more. If they stay, you'll get more value from the hand. If you're TOO aggressive, then you're going to lose value on a hand like this.. and a hand like this is when you want to be stacking chips in front of you, because you will have the best hand.
Fri Nov 25, 2011, 11:28 AM
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
Getting maximum value is going to involve using information on your opponents' tendencies. For this hand, a suggestion on how to get max value is going to be ineffective without reads. However there are some things you may want to keep in mind:

When you hold a hand which is quite likely to be the best, Deception often comes at a cost in terms of delayed profit. That cost may be a smaller pot, or it may be a greater chance of allowing a card to come which might beat you. Against opponents who are not likely to be thinking about your play much, the benefits of balancing your play ("changing gears") is far less important. You can usually rely on their mistakes to pay you off when you bet your hands for value.

For a hand like yours here, deception is not usually going to cost you the HAND very often; your hand is strong enough that free cards are pretty un-likely to result in you being drawn out on. But the "cost" of a deceptive move like a check on this flop MAY be a smaller pot on the river, because you check one of the betting streets. That means less value for you.

Please note, as played I think you did fine to check this flop, but the REASON you are checking (using a deceptive play) should be to either induce a bluff, or to allow a chance that an opponent "catches up" to a 2nd best hand like a straight, a flush, or a 2 pair hand. The delay in your profit against bad players (those who are not able, or un-willing, to note your playing tendencies) is usually only a delay until the late streets of a hand. Against more aware opponents, the delay in your profit may be longer than that, and will not be realized until LATER HANDS. But whether yo are playing weak opponents, or strong ones, Deception should not be used automatically just because you can.

That means if your opponents are calling stations, there is a decent reason to check the flop (so you do not clue them in to the strength of your hand), but your turn bet can tend to be LARGER than you made it.

If your opponents are very bluff-y, or simply highly aggro with marginally strong hands, your bet sizing is very nice to appear as a weak stab. That means you may well get them to raise you You could have then flatted that raise, and either checked to induce a river bet, or again bet small in hopes they come over you again.

If your opponents are just big calling stations, there is no real need to check the flop at all.

Also of note, even before you hit your hand, if you can effectively range your opponents pre flop based on their actions, you may well have been able to RAISE and get more in early. If you can use info on your opponents' ranges to make the pot bigger oop with AJ, that would mean they are loose enough to call on hands oyur AJ plays well against, you may have built the pot bigger pre flop

So altogether, there is no reason to say you did anything "wrong" in this hand: it simply may have been the opponents had air and probably do not call anything larger than the 250 you fired on the turn. It is not until you see their individual tendencies that you can really lead yourself toward a line of play which might derive you more value than you got here.

hope it helps...

Last edited by JDean; Fri Nov 25, 2011 at 11:32 AM..
Sat Nov 26, 2011, 03:50 AM
chuckkky's Avatar
Since: Dec 2010
Posts: 913
Thanks for all your advice.
Always helpful.
Sat Nov 26, 2011, 03:46 PM
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,499
(Head Trainer)
I think checking the flop is fine, the stack to pot ratio is low enough that you don't need 3 streets to get all in so let the pfr c-bet is ok. On the turn you need to bet more than the minimum, there are a lot of worse hands that can call you but your min bet is basically like a check, you want to set up stacks on the river vs. Ax and can still get a turn call by KQ or KT type hands. On the river I would check, your bet is probably never getting called by anyone without at least a ten, but if someone does hold a ten they will likely bet it for you, they won't be likely to check it down. Unfortunate river card freezes your action, which is why it's good to bet more on the turn. I think the only way to make more on this hand is check the river and give someone a chance to bluff at the scary looking card (knowing you are very unlikely to lose value vs tens because they will bet anyway).

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