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J7 Big Blind

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J7 Big Blind - Sun Nov 27, 2011, 06:51 AM
(#1)
electrux_hcb's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 59
This is the first hand i've posted on here, I'll let the replayer do the talking, how well did I play this hand?

 
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Sun Nov 27, 2011, 07:32 AM
(#2)
Puciek's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 771
TL;dr: very bad.

Tad longer:
Pref: check is good.
OTF: you either slowplay your 2p or fire pot-sized bet. Problem with firing pot here is that from what do we really get value? Not many draw would just limp pre, 89o got there. We can hope to get some value of weak plaid AT or KJ and KQ but that closes the list. Most like outcome of us betting pot here (betting less is a mistake) will be that we wiether get rereaised or win the pot right here.
Check/calling allows people to bluff at the pot, which is much wider range but much more unlikely since they have plaid so passively pref.

It's really a judgment call, if you are new then b/f OTF is a better play for as it doesn't put you in tough spots.
 
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Sun Nov 27, 2011, 10:45 AM
(#3)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Pre-Flop:

Trying to raise to "punish the limpers" on a very weak hand like J7o would be futile.
A) the effective stack is barely 20BB and he might stand
B) if the table dynamic is loose enough that you are frequently seeing this many limpers, chances are good any raise would not get everyone to fold (unless you made a huge one that would be very risky for you).

So your check to see the flop is good.

Flop:

I'm a big advocate of using a standard bet on the flop of around half pot if you feel you hold the best hand.
You make that bet here, but I do not like that sizing choice much at all.
Here's why...

While you do have every reasons to suspect your hand is best on this flop, the board is pretty coordinated.
The presence of a possible straight already means that you may well NOT be holding the best hand.

Also, while you are denying odds to any gut shot straight draw with your 100 chip lead bet (40% pot), a bet that small in a MULTI WAY pot runs the risk that a "mistake call" by the first palyer to act after you may lead to subsequent players getting a correct price to draw at gut shots or better kicker hits to run you down.

You really need to bet at least 2/3rds the pot here, and a pot size bet is not bad either.

Continuing...

UTG flats your lead, and the shortest stack min raises you.
The BTN then calls that min raise.

When the action gets back to you, you jam.

Now this is where things get sticky in saying whether or not your jam decision is valid...

The pluses of it are that you are crushing any 1 pair hand, but your hand is the 6th nut here; that means there are 5 better hands.
To put the 6th nut hand into perspective, if the board were A 6 9, holding the 6th nut hand would put you on AQ.
Would you have willingly jammed your full stack over the top of a min raiser on that board after the pot went to the flop 5 way for a limp?

A bet like that is pretty "value owning" for you, as t tends to get called only by better, and folds out worse, see?

To make your shove valid, you really need to know that your opponents will call with LESS.
Did you have info which would say the opponents might sack off now with hands like AJ/KJ or AT/A9?
If you have made those sorts of observations, then while risky, you play has a decent chance of getitng you good value.

Do you have info that would lead you to suspect what we saw in the actual paly, that your opponents MIGHT limp big pockets in a multi-way pot, then be willing to stack off on those? Again, if you had info from your observations that oculd lead you to suspect this, your shove gains vailidity.

If you lack that info, you are risking your stack too lightly, and limpers can easily have hands like JT/89/77 or even TT/JJ in their ranges.

I think I would have been more partial to a Raise on the order of making it 600 or 700 to go.
On your stack size, I'd be willing to play for stacks versus the smallest stack in the pot, but I'd be somewhat reluctant to play for half my chips on top and bottom pair versus the 1600 stack.

If the BTN keeps to the patterns shown in the results, that of an excessive slow palyer of a big over pair, chances are good you get yourself into a dry pot situation versus him and the short stack, and you can guage how much he "likes" his hand on the turn.

Now I will grant that acting as you did, once the results are known, is BETTER than what I suggest. I say what you did is better once the results are known because you effectively get 2 players all in who were drawing somewhat thin against you, and you created a side pot which was large enough to cause you to just about break even if you lost the main pot. The only problem I have with your line is that the RESULTS were not known when you made your decision.

Your actions here really strike me as an instance where you over valued the worth of your hand, and that over-valuation led you to a rash decision. If you had provided info on your opponents that you had used to make your decision, there is a good chance it is a right one, but absent that info, it is a pretty big risk you took here. The fact that your actions turned out to be the best play for you, one which had very nice EV, and also that afforded you maximum protection from a suck out because of the size of the side pot, is really moot; you only know that it was right AFTER THE FACT.

so bottom line is:

1) Make your flop bet sizing larger
2) Recognize the strength of your hand in relation to the absolute NUT hand.
3) Act accordingly for what is best for you in the widest range of circumstances if you lack info to push you toward one direction or the other.

In this hand you made a pretty rash decision and put over half your stack at risk with what might have been a 2nd best hand.
You really have to remember that your hand in Hold 'em is only as good as its relationship to the absolute BEST possible hand on the board, and that a 2 pair hand has vastly different value in terms of you being willing to stack off on it when the board comes as it does here, versus it coming pretty "dry".

The fact you woke up to make the BEST decision by shoving doesn;t change that fact, unless your shove was based on information you had gathered at the table.

Hope it helps.

Last edited by JDean; Sun Nov 27, 2011 at 10:50 AM..
 
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Mon Nov 28, 2011, 09:29 AM
(#4)
electrux_hcb's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 59
Thanks for the reply. It was a reckless play really, I don't normally play this way but when the short stack raised I wanted to make him pay to see the turn, and as he didn't bet pre-flop I thought he might have hit one pair.
 

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