Home / Community / Forum / Poker Education / Texas Hold'Em Tournament Section (MTTs & STTs) /

Shove or Fold

Old
Default
Shove or Fold - Wed Nov 30, 2011, 07:03 AM
(#1)
chuckkky's Avatar
Since: Dec 2010
Posts: 913
Hi just wondering if I had the right odds for this play?
Can you ever fold a Royal Flush Draw ?
Does it really matter here if they were tight, loose or a fish? (As usual I was on a couple of tables).
It was a PSO game, not that It was really going to change my score for the end of the month.
I was more curios for future games wether it was the right play, Or should I of shoved first?



Thanks for your time.
 
Old
Default
Wed Nov 30, 2011, 07:24 AM
(#2)
XxTiberxX's Avatar
Since: Sep 2011
Posts: 374
personally with a draw and 2 people all-in i would of folded this, and with the shove monkeys in the OL you never know what they have
 
Old
Default
Wed Nov 30, 2011, 07:57 AM
(#3)
Puciek's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 771
Calling pre is fine, 150 to gazzilion and other gazzilion if we hit.
We hit a monster flop and we want value. I bet it and am ready to call/shove. There is NOT WAY i am folding here. So i would bet a pot here, and shove when someone comes over the top. I really don't like checking, it may get checked around and we want to get in now when we are ahead.
 
Old
Default
Wed Nov 30, 2011, 08:15 AM
(#4)
XxTiberxX's Avatar
Since: Sep 2011
Posts: 374
Quote:
Originally Posted by Puciek View Post
Calling pre is fine, 150 to gazzilion and other gazzilion if we hit.
We hit a monster flop and we want value. I bet it and am ready to call/shove. There is NOT WAY i am folding here. So i would bet a pot here, and shove when someone comes over the top. I really don't like checking, it may get checked around and we want to get in now when we are ahead.
Hit a monster flop? you mean a monster draw, he was never ahead...
 
Old
Default
Wed Nov 30, 2011, 08:40 AM
(#5)
Puciek's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 771
Quote:
Originally Posted by XxTiberxX View Post
Hit a monster flop? you mean a monster draw, he was never ahead...
So with a draw you can't be ahead? Good to learn that
 
Old
Default
Wed Nov 30, 2011, 09:09 AM
(#6)
TrumpinJoe's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 4,557
Just for fun download PokerStove and check out the equity of a "double draw".
 
Old
Default
Wed Nov 30, 2011, 09:13 AM
(#7)
Puciek's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 771
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrumpinJoe View Post
Just for fun download PokerStove and check out the equity of a "double draw".
And they call me sarcastic
 
Old
Default
Wed Nov 30, 2011, 09:30 AM
(#8)
mtnestegg's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,336
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrumpinJoe View Post
Just for fun download PokerStove and check out the equity of a "double draw".
lol ya ..just for fun..
 
Old
Default
Wed Nov 30, 2011, 09:55 AM
(#9)
XxTiberxX's Avatar
Since: Sep 2011
Posts: 374
an open ended straight draw is just as good as an AK, its not a made hand yet. Sure the villains didnt had a made hand eitherbut you shouldnt ASSUME that they dont have a made hand with 2 pushes.
 
Old
Default
Wed Nov 30, 2011, 10:15 AM
(#10)
bikerzaine's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 42
you only have 8 outs and you can only really count the 9c as with that board the other 3 9s would only give you the idiot end of the str8. with one all in and a call i would fold.
 
Old
Default
Wed Nov 30, 2011, 10:23 AM
(#11)
Puciek's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 771
You guys are really starting to give me a headache. And what is worse that someone may come and actually take your "advice" seriously so i will make this all-clear.

We got 15 outs just for fluh and straight. We are blocking anyone from having a stronger draw (AcKc/9cTc is not possible) so the worst we are looking to be against is 9T w/o a redraw (against which we got gazilion outs) and a set (against which we got another gazilion outs).
Even in this situation (about the worst one for us), we look just ama-****ing-zing:
Hand Equity Wins Ties
KcTc 38.87% 342 18
JsJd 34.55% 312 0
9cTh 26.58% 231 18


So yea, go and fold... Care to come and play high stakes HU?

Last edited by Puciek; Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 10:28 AM..
 
Old
Default
Wed Nov 30, 2011, 10:46 AM
(#12)
bikerzaine's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 42
i am not giving advice...i am giving my opinion. you may have a "gazilion" outs but you have to discount a lot of them on that board with a shove and call. counting all the outs and not discounting any is a sure fire way of losing, in MY OPINION. i am not giving advice this is just my thoughts on that particular situation and what i would do.
 
Old
Default
Wed Nov 30, 2011, 10:55 AM
(#13)
Puciek's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 771
Quote:
Originally Posted by bikerzaine View Post
i am not giving advice...i am giving my opinion. you may have a "gazilion" outs but you have to discount a lot of them on that board with a shove and call. counting all the outs and not discounting any is a sure fire way of losing, in MY OPINION. i am not giving advice this is just my thoughts on that particular situation and what i would do.
Right, what outs do we discount and why, do explain.
Show me the math w/o discounting
Show me the hands that we discount
Show me the math after discounting

Go for it, show me. So far you are just blowing out of your arse so about time you bring something valid and sound to the table.
 
Old
Default
Wed Nov 30, 2011, 10:57 AM
(#14)
XxTiberxX's Avatar
Since: Sep 2011
Posts: 374
with an all-in and a call you can bet on it that 1 of the guys have the Ace end of the flush draw. You do not only have to count your outs, but take into consideration that 1 of the villains is holding your outs with an all-in


Quote:
Originally Posted by Puciek View Post
Right, what outs do we discount and why, do explain.
Show me the math w/o discounting
Show me the hands that we discount
Show me the math after discounting

Go for it, show me. So far you are just blowing out of your arse so about time you bring something valid and sound to the table.
You cannot discount outs that could POSSIBLE be discounted, but you should take it into consideration. your taking Pure math, your not taking reason into your calculation

Last edited by XxTiberxX; Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 10:59 AM..
 
Old
Default
Wed Nov 30, 2011, 10:58 AM
(#15)
Puciek's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 771
Quote:
Originally Posted by XxTiberxX View Post
with an all-in and a call you can bet on it that 1 of the guys have the Ace end of the flush draw. You do not only have to count your outs, but take into consideration that 1 of the villains is holding your outs with an all-in
Right becuase we do so bad against naked a-high flushdraw. We do so bad against it i am about to gavomit.
 
Old
Default
Wed Nov 30, 2011, 11:05 AM
(#16)
bikerzaine's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 42
if you can't read other peoples opinions without getting arsey and insulting them then don't bother. as i said i am just giving MY opinion i never said you had to listen to what im saying. i am not a pro but am sure that not discounting outs that will help your opp will give you incorrect odds.
 
Old
Default
Wed Nov 30, 2011, 11:07 AM
(#17)
Puciek's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 771
Quote:
Originally Posted by bikerzaine View Post
if you can't read other peoples opinions without getting arsey and insulting them then don't bother. as i said i am just giving MY opinion i never said you had to listen to what im saying. i am not a pro but am sure that not discounting outs that will help your opp will give you incorrect odds.
If you can't back your posts with data, you should not be posting since we are giving advice to everyone around. All you do is cause confusion, mess and what i call "trolling". On top of that someone may actually listen to that which in the end will cost them money.
 
Old
Default
Wed Nov 30, 2011, 11:19 AM
(#18)
bikerzaine's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 42
maybe you should look up the meaning of "opinion" in the dictionary. people are not forced to follow any ones opinion/ advice as gospel. it is up to the individual to decide which is worth taking in.
 
Old
Default
Wed Nov 30, 2011, 12:14 PM
(#19)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,809
(Super-Moderator)
BronzeStar
On the flop:

you've got 1 out to a royal (Ac)
1 out to a straight flush (9c)
7 outs to a fush (other clubs)
3 outs to an overcard (K... good if they only have a pair)
3 outs to an A high straight (the other non-club aces)
3 outs to a K high straight (the non-club 9's)

that gives us 15 outs if a K won't make us good... 18 if a K would make us win. Using the rough estimate of 4% equity for each out that we have at the flop..... we've got 60% equity at worst, 72% at best. If we shove, we're putting 8325 chips into a pot of about 18k chips (less than 50%).

We've got way more equity in the hand than the chip % we need to put in... so I'm shoving this evey single time
 
Old
Default
Wed Nov 30, 2011, 12:15 PM
(#20)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,809
(Super-Moderator)
BronzeStar
You can fold a royal draw, if the odds say you're behind and the royal is the only way you can win the hand... but not in this situation, since we're the favorite in the hand.
 

Getting PokerStars is easy: download and install the PokerStars game software, create your free player account, and validate your email address. Clicking on the download poker button will lead to the installation of compatible poker software on your PC of 51.7 MB, which will enable you to register and play poker on the PokerStars platform. To uninstall PokerStars use the Windows uninstaller: click Start > Control Panel and then select Add or Remove programs > Select PokerStars and click Uninstall or Remove.

Copyright (c) PokerSchoolOnline.com. All rights reserved, Rational Group, Douglas Bay Complex, King Edward Road, Onchan, Isle of Man, IM3 1DZ. You can email us on support@pokerschoolonline.com