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Shoving when I know I am behind

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Shoving when I know I am behind - Thu Dec 01, 2011, 01:07 PM
(#1)
topthecat's Avatar
Since: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,962


This is a 180 man 2.50$ turbo, last 50 and I am shortstacked. I had been at the table the whole time and had only played 2 Hands; the one previous to this where I had won with Aces and eliminated another shortstack and an earlier hand where I had stolen the blinds with A5 off. The rest of the time I had basically been card dead.

The opener was only there a short time but seemed fairly loose while the villain had two plays in his armoury shove or fold, usually with pck pairs but once with A10 off when he hit the straight.

I wanted to see a hand here as I did not feel comfortable shoving again and if I hit nothing was willing to fold; I expected a shove from the guy on the BB with any pocket pair. When he did shove I knew I was behind but only marginally, I thought a long time about it but eventually decided to race but the cards did not fall my way.

I am still convinced that limping was the right play here and that if I had shoved the villain was never folding anyway. Should I have folded and bided my time, limped or shoved? What is the optimum play?

Cheers,

TC
 
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Thu Dec 01, 2011, 01:51 PM
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oriholic's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 751
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Snap shove.

AJs is way ahead of the opener's range, AND if he's not folding a lot then you're ahead of his calling range as well. This is a great spot to jam for for value.
 
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Thu Dec 01, 2011, 06:20 PM
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JWK24's Avatar
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Instead of calling the 600, I agree with Ori that I'd shove too. The BB is probably not folding, but I'm a whole lot happier being the one to shove first, not have to call a shove.
 
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Thu Dec 01, 2011, 09:10 PM
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topthecat's Avatar
Since: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,962
I am still in two minds about this one. I have no doubt the villain would have called an all in, so shoving first and getting the same result leaves me in the same position: out of the tourney.

Is there any merit in folding my hand after the villain's all in, since I would have folded the flop that came and I would have still have been alive and maybe found a better spot to shove than in the SB?

Cheers,

TC
 
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Thu Dec 01, 2011, 09:17 PM
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JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
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If you did fold, you'd have 7BB left, which you can do... but... if you do muck to it, then you'll have to shove the next hand you play.

With the extra 800 chips, I'd still want to be the first to shove (and if you get called, you want a race and not to be dominated). They're probably calling it, but I'd make them have the decision... not you.
 
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Thu Dec 01, 2011, 11:22 PM
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Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
Quote:
Originally Posted by topthecat View Post
I am still in two minds about this one. I have no doubt the villain would have called an all in, so shoving first and getting the same result leaves me in the same position: out of the tourney.

Is there any merit in folding my hand after the villain's all in, since I would have folded the flop that came and I would have still have been alive and maybe found a better spot to shove than in the SB?

Cheers,

TC

NO. Look Top it's not just THIS particular situation...if circumstances via the cards,mistakes you made earlier,a bad beat,whatever...leave you at 8BB in a tourney like this when you're trying to get to a FT (the min-cash is acceptable but FT is where the real money is...) then you have to be willing to get your gamble on when the chips in the middle become worth it. You just have to make the times when you win the hands in a spot like this count for something is all.

AJs on your stack in this type of game is a ship. Just do it,don't hold the stick so tight and let it fly brother. You got a flip here. That's good,you need to win some of those to do what you want to do in these. Like I said---the ones where you win these flips at a key time,make them count.
 
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Thu Dec 01, 2011, 11:45 PM
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oriholic's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 751
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by topthecat View Post
I am still in two minds about this one. I have no doubt the villain would have called an all in, so shoving first and getting the same result leaves me in the same position: out of the tourney.

Is there any merit in folding my hand after the villain's all in, since I would have folded the flop that came and I would have still have been alive and maybe found a better spot to shove than in the SB?

Cheers,

TC
Ew gross no. The most aggressive play you can make would be to flat to induce a shove from an aggro BB whose range you're way ahead of. This is the kind of play you might make with QQ+, but I still think that by FAR the best play is to just jam for value.

And no. You shouldn't be folding preflop and you shouldn't be folding the flop. You have way too much equity against his range.
 
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Fri Dec 02, 2011, 12:25 AM
(#8)
joy7108's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,284
You say that you know that the BB wouldn't fold to a shove, but is that read prior to seeing his hand? I agree that in this particular circumstance he's probably never folding to your shove, but with a random hand, this is a +ev move against his range. With your stack being low, I'd shove it every time, especially if I only have the BB to get through.

I know what you mean, though, some hands just kinda haunt you.


Last edited by joy7108; Fri Dec 02, 2011 at 12:26 AM.. Reason: missing ghost
 
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Fri Dec 02, 2011, 01:49 AM
(#9)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,479
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by oriholic View Post
Snap shove.

AJs is way ahead of the opener's range, AND if he's not folding a lot then you're ahead of his calling range as well. This is a great spot to jam for for value.
+1.

You didn't limp, you called a raise. The guy min-raising on the button is a perfect spot for a resteal 3b shove. If he calls tight, then he's folding a ton, and if he calls wide then AJs has good hand value to go for a double up.

As for the 99 in the big blind, he may well not be folding to your 3b shove but you can't control the bb waking up with a hand.
 
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Fri Dec 02, 2011, 01:53 AM
(#10)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,479
(Head Trainer)
Read the rest, yeah they're right. Don't be results oriented. You have an 8.5 bb stack to start the hand you can't afford to call a raise for 2 of it and then fold, that would be a pretty major spew. I think the best play here is to shove over the button opener to maximize fold equity (there's 3.5 bb's + antes out there to take down, better than just a pure steal) and have a reasonable equity chance to double up if you get called.
 
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Fri Dec 02, 2011, 07:52 AM
(#11)
topthecat's Avatar
Since: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,962
Thanks for the feedback guys; I am still trying to get my head around this because my track record in tournies is abysmal.

It really does get frustrating waiting for a decent hand when you see people accruing stacks with hands like K8 and Q9 off or J2 of diamonds. I had just doubled up the previous hand with Aces and had only played one hand prior to that which was a steal with A5 off. I was getting hands like 82, 10,4, K 3 which are simply unplayable (although saying that most of the people at this table were playing them).

@ Moxie: My short stack was down to the fact I was card dead, but I really fancied my chances here because the play was so bad. I have no problem getting my gamble hat on but for some reason in this type of format my hands always run into something better or someone flops a set with K5 off against my Qs shove. The upshot is that fear and indecisiveness are creeping into my play in these and every time it seems to be a self fulfilling prophecy; I shove pocket Ks on the turn, the opponent turns over Js: He can only beat me by rivering a J and there are only two in the deck and off course it takes an age for the river card to show and there is a little voice saying it will be a J, and it is not much of a surprise then that it is.

I am not complaining because I run very well in cash and have my share of luck but how do I combat the negativity in these? My style in tournies is definitely on the nitty side but I have even tried loosening up and widening my range with even worse results Maybe I should just accept that this is not my format.

@ Joy as for the player; I definitely had the read beforehand. I do not have a HUD but I take meticulous notes; he had shoved over raises four times with small to mid pocket pairs and held or improved three times and lost once to a smaller stack. The poker gods were definitely smiling on him

@ Dave you are right, I did call a raise but it felt like a limp I do try to make the best decisions, (not in this case though) and I try not to be results orientated but I would just like one time to get to a final table in a tourney and not always finish in the middle of the field or a min cash.

I did try the 50/50s last night but went on tilt and lost about 10$. The good news though is that the better half just got a transfer back to Munich after working for over two years during the week in Paris and you could not wipe the smile off my face with a baseball bat

Again everyone I am really grateful for all the advice, I just have to put it into action

Cheers,

TC
 

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