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Your thoughts?

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Your thoughts? - Mon Dec 05, 2011, 11:31 PM
(#1)
skoolbuly's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 19
Hi guys, I just wanted a second opinion on something that has been on my mind for a while.

I was playing in a tournament holding AKo in middle position. The player before me who is quite a donk....raised 480 in a 30/60 for the 2nd time in a row. I figured because he was playing around 60% of hands, loose and aggressive with a wide range, I shoved my 3K stack over the top. It turned out it was AK vs AQ and Q hit on the flop and I got busted.

Was it the right move to shove?

Christophe
 
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Mon Dec 05, 2011, 11:41 PM
(#2)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
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what type of tourney was it in and what were the chip stacks? That would play into my decision. When they overbet like that before, what did they show?

AK, while it is a very good hand, is still just ace high. I'd probably just flat it and see the flop. That way, you can get off the hand if you don't hit something. However, if the opp was showing down many bad hands, then don't mind the push.
 
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Tue Dec 06, 2011, 12:08 AM
(#3)
skoolbuly's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 19
It was only $11 10K GTD
 
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Tue Dec 06, 2011, 12:09 AM
(#4)
skoolbuly's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 19
when he bet like that before...he showed J6c.
 
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Tue Dec 06, 2011, 12:12 AM
(#5)
skoolbuly's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
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I was a little over 3K and he was 6K in stacks. He was very loose
 
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Tue Dec 06, 2011, 12:21 AM
(#6)
JWK24's Avatar
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with that, I actually like the shove. You were and most likely in this situation are ahead, so I like the play.
 
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Tue Dec 06, 2011, 12:29 AM
(#7)
CorkiePoker's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by skoolbuly View Post
Hi guys, I just wanted a second opinion on something that has been on my mind for a while.

I was playing in a tournament holding AKo in middle position. The player before me who is quite a donk....raised 480 in a 30/60 for the 2nd time in a row. I figured because he was playing around 60% of hands, loose and aggressive with a wide range, I shoved my 3K stack over the top. It turned out it was AK vs AQ and Q hit on the flop and I got busted.

Was it the right move to shove?

Christophe
Lots of folks here will disagree, but I think NO. When you shove, you put luck in control. You lose all ability to influence events. Shoving AK is very popular, but mostly I think it's done because it's easy. It doesn't require the player to think about the hand. I try to avoid shoving. I'll do it, when necessary, but generally not. I think people who shove a lot preflop go to final table less than those who don't. The evidence is only anecdotal, but it is there.
 
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Tue Dec 06, 2011, 12:38 AM
(#8)
Da Sens Fan's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,118
Quote:
Originally Posted by skoolbuly View Post
Hi guys, I just wanted a second opinion on something that has been on my mind for a while.

I was playing in a tournament holding AKo in middle position. The player before me who is quite a donk....raised 480 in a 30/60 for the 2nd time in a row. I figured because he was playing around 60% of hands, loose and aggressive with a wide range, I shoved my 3K stack over the top. It turned out it was AK vs AQ and Q hit on the flop and I got busted.

Was it the right move to shove?

Christophe
I like the shove. Normally when you have 50bbs I wouldn't go to nuts, but this opponent wreaks of fail from what you've posted. Too loose and he is raising 8x preflop in EP showing a weakness in bet sizing. You can be very confident you are ahead of his ranges. Seems like a great opponent to feed off. Unfortunate that he hit his queen, but I think you played it well.


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Last edited by Da Sens Fan; Wed Dec 07, 2011 at 09:54 AM..
 
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Tue Dec 06, 2011, 03:34 PM
(#9)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skoolbuly View Post
Hi guys, I just wanted a second opinion on something that has been on my mind for a while.

I was playing in a tournament holding AKo in middle position. The player before me who is quite a donk....raised 480 in a 30/60 for the 2nd time in a row. I figured because he was playing around 60% of hands, loose and aggressive with a wide range, I shoved my 3K stack over the top. It turned out it was AK vs AQ and Q hit on the flop and I got busted.

Was it the right move to shove?

Christophe
Welcome to the forum sb ... hope you don't mind me saying this, but your stats are impressive! Congrats on all the success

Do you see a lot of those types of players at the $11 level? I thought maybe there'd be less not more at the higher stakes than at the micro tables, but I've heard there's lots at every level ... sigh ....
 
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Tue Dec 06, 2011, 07:53 PM
(#10)
skoolbuly's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 19
From my own experiences, I find that there isn't a great deal of difference between say micro $3.30 tournaments and low $11 tournaments. I was playing the same $11 last night, and 6/9 players had stats something like 60/12 or 60/57 lol. There are the same donky players, but there are also a handful of good players with some very good stats that ive seen.

But if u jump up to the $33+ tournaments where the money and stakes are higher, then deception and fancy play works a higher percentage of the time. You can 3 barrel and a player might actually fold TP, but in <$11...haha 2nd pair il call u down all the way.
 
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Tue Dec 06, 2011, 07:58 PM
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JWK24's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skoolbuly View Post
There are the same donky players, but there are also a handful of good players with some very good stats that ive seen.
You'll find the same type of players in live games too, most of the ones I play are $25-80 and even at that price range live, you'll see the same types of players. I saw a player 3 seats from me at my table in a $350 WSOPC that donked himself out in 4 hands.
 
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Tue Dec 06, 2011, 08:30 PM
(#12)
topthecat's Avatar
Since: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,962
Moved
Thread moved to Hand Analysis as it is likely to get more pertinent responses there.

TC
 
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Tue Dec 06, 2011, 11:01 PM
(#13)
skoolbuly's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 19
haha thanks trustysam But these stats could be better, constantly learning.

Christopher
 
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Wed Dec 07, 2011, 05:19 AM
(#14)
pteridophyta's Avatar
Since: Aug 2011
Posts: 96
Looks pretty standard to be fair. Isolate with the Big Slick

Calling off 15% of your stack pre is horrible. You'll have to fold the flop a tonne of times and you don't get to stack the donks A high and trash hands.

CorkiePoker - You put luck in control when you shove AA pre. AK likes to see all 5 cards so let it see them. Are you really folding in this spot? What's your plan if you call? Fold unless you make a pair?

Nice hand OP, chalk it down to variance and play AK in the future the same way against this villain.

GG
 
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Wed Dec 07, 2011, 09:58 AM
(#15)
skoolbuly's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 19
yeah i know calling a large raise is definately not the right play here. it was either shove or fold
 
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Wed Dec 07, 2011, 10:50 AM
(#16)
XxTiberxX's Avatar
Since: Sep 2011
Posts: 374
my thoughts: fold it. AKo is a mediocre hand in mid position, you are not only playing against 1 person but also against everyone that can still call you.

30/60 with a 3k stack, I wouldnt be too worried yet about big stacks there will be alot more oppurtunities to come.

You were ahead with the best hand and got it all-in thats the best that you can do. personally i dont like to shove AKs or AKo because it isnt a made hand.

You know the saying, even bad players can get good hands once in a while.
 
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Wed Dec 07, 2011, 11:06 AM
(#17)
Puciek's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 771
This is a very easy ship. You are about 65-70% ahead against his calling range which is great spot to put all your chips in.
And don't listen to other, well let's call them "creative monkeys", you don't care if someone calls behind you. Someone of that 5 people behind you picking AA/KK is about a 0.5% bad beat (and prolly less since you are holding a blocker to both AA and KK).
 
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Wed Dec 07, 2011, 06:08 PM
(#18)
pteridophyta's Avatar
Since: Aug 2011
Posts: 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by XxTiberxX View Post
my thoughts: fold it. AKo is a mediocre hand in mid position, you are not only playing against 1 person but also against everyone that can still call you.

30/60 with a 3k stack, I wouldnt be too worried yet about big stacks there will be alot more oppurtunities to come.

You were ahead with the best hand and got it all-in thats the best that you can do. personally i dont like to shove AKs or AKo because it isnt a made hand.

You know the saying, even bad players can get good hands once in a while.
Are you for real?

No one else is calling behind unless they hold QQ+ and AK. He holds blockers to all bar QQ and then it's a flip 3 way. Good times

There is so much ship in this hand it needs a harbour
 
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Wed Dec 07, 2011, 06:11 PM
(#19)
pteridophyta's Avatar
Since: Aug 2011
Posts: 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrustySam View Post
Welcome to the forum sb ... hope you don't mind me saying this, but your stats are impressive! Congrats on all the success

Do you see a lot of those types of players at the $11 level? I thought maybe there'd be less not more at the higher stakes than at the micro tables, but I've heard there's lots at every level ... sigh ....
This is a good thing
 
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Thu Dec 08, 2011, 12:59 PM
(#20)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skoolbuly View Post
From my own experiences, I find that there isn't a great deal of difference between say micro $3.30 tournaments and low $11 tournaments. I was playing the same $11 last night, and 6/9 players had stats something like 60/12 or 60/57 lol (Comment from Sam: ). There are the same donky players, but there are also a handful of good players with some very good stats that ive seen.

But if u jump up to the $33+ tournaments where the money and stakes are higher, then deception and fancy play works a higher percentage of the time. You can 3 barrel and a player might actually fold TP, but in <$11...haha 2nd pair il call u down all the way.
Cool, thx for the info! I was thinking of playing the 10th Anniversary Sunday Storm this weekend, which would be my first time playing a $11 tournament, so I was wondering what to expect.

It almost sounds like ... like all the loose passives from the Big $2.20 got more aggro and decided that meant they were ready for a higher buy-in? I've run into a player or two in the Big $2.20 with the 60/40 stats who was highly capable (and profitable, which people might find hard to believe), like 'C&P2628'. But they were the exception ... a VPIP of 60 - it would seem like so much could go wrong ...

Anyways, will see how it goes on Sunday - thx for the tips!!
 

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