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6Max check/calling turn & river with the nuts

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6Max check/calling turn & river with the nuts - Wed Dec 07, 2011, 07:09 AM
(#1)
EdinFreeMan's Avatar
Since: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,540
OK - I have a nice hand that works out well for me here, doubling me through.

Afterwards I wondered if I was really doing the right thing check/calling both the turn and the river when I had the nut full house. I didn't expect the opponent to be beating me with 22. I thought they might have the Qd for a chopped pot, or possibly a PP bigger than 22 (well they all are aren't they!) or even a PP bigger than QQ.



Obviously the opponent was unlucky to flop a big hand from such a bad starting hand, or I would have got no action, but I think they played it pretty badly from the turn on. But would I be more profitable in the long run betting the turn and/or river for value?

Ed from Edinburgh - EdinFreeMan
 
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Wed Dec 07, 2011, 07:22 AM
(#2)
Puciek's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 771
You played very badly OTF, OTT and OTR
Why on the tap dancing jesus and doggy style marry you are 3-beting OTF? To push out every hand you can get a value from and get called by better hands? Well then - mission accomplished!.
And then OTT pot is 1.56, you got 1.6 left, you ht your gin card and you suddenly "just call". He was retarded to bet OTR, it is screaming "I GOT A Q".
 
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Wed Dec 07, 2011, 07:44 AM
(#3)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
Yeah, reraising OTF definitely gets everything worse to fold the majority of the time. When the next queen comes, anybody who's smart will be shutting down with deuces full. You might as well hope they're not smart and just take the aggressive line and bet.

The flop raise is a big clue that the viillain has a 2. Making a minraise or a raise equal to the size of the previous bet is not a standard bet size. It's very frequently an indicator that top/top is no good. If you have any real amount of money left behind, you're often best off just folding.
 
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Wed Dec 07, 2011, 09:18 AM
(#4)
EdinFreeMan's Avatar
Since: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,540
Quote:
Originally Posted by PanickyPoker View Post
Yeah, reraising OTF definitely gets everything worse to fold the majority of the time. When the next queen comes, anybody who's smart will be shutting down with deuces full. You might as well hope they're not smart and just take the aggressive line and bet.

The flop raise is a big clue that the viillain has a 2. Making a minraise or a raise equal to the size of the previous bet is not a standard bet size. It's very frequently an indicator that top/top is no good. If you have any real amount of money left behind, you're often best off just folding.
I take on board I played the flop less than optimally. Given the opp called my preflop raise I really wasn't putting them on a 2, because probably only A2 or 22 are ever going to call preflop. (though obviously not here). When they bet it seems fishy, and when I represent the Q with the reraise if they think I am bluffing they may come along with PPs, at that point I think they have a hand, but still unlikely the 2.

So my specific question is having reached the turn, given the opposition's betting pattern and the range I can put them on, is my check/calling the turn, then given that they have bet the turn, repeating that line on the river really bad?


Ed from Edinburgh - EdinFreeMann

Last edited by EdinFreeMan; Wed Dec 07, 2011 at 09:20 AM..
 
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Wed Dec 07, 2011, 09:20 AM
(#5)
Puciek's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 771
Quote:
Originally Posted by EdinFreeMan View Post
I take on board I played the flop less than optimally. Given the opp called my preflop raise I really wasn't putting them on a 2, because probably only A2 or 22 are ever going to call preflop. (though obviously not here). When they bet it seems fishy, and when I represent the Q with the reraise if they think I am bluffing they may come along with PPs, at that point I think they have a hand, but still unlikely the 2.

So my specific question is having reached the turn, given the oppositions betting pattern and the range I can put them on, is my check/calling the turn, given they bet the turn, repeating that line on the river really bad?


Ed from Edinburgh - EdinFreeMann
You based his range on what? Do you have stats on him with 4939239432 hands history? Or were you observing him for at least couple orbits to figure his range? Where is that supposed read coming from?
I bet on weather and last lotto numbers
 
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Wed Dec 07, 2011, 09:33 AM
(#6)
EdinFreeMan's Avatar
Since: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,540
Quote:
Originally Posted by Puciek View Post
You based his range on what? Do you have stats on him with 4939239432 hands history? Or were you observing him for at least couple orbits to figure his range? Where is that supposed read coming from?
I bet on weather and last lotto numbers
OK Puciek I will say this once and only once. However good a player or hand analyser you are I simply don't appreciate your input so why not stop wasting your time and mine. I won't be reading another single word you post in these forums or responding to anything you say. Life is just too short, especially at my age.

Ed from Edinburgh - EdinFreeMan
 
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Wed Dec 07, 2011, 09:35 AM
(#7)
Puciek's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 771
Quote:
Originally Posted by EdinFreeMan View Post
OK Puciek I will say this once and only once. However good a player or hand analyser you are I simply don't appreciate your input so why not stop wasting your time and mine. I won't be reading another single word you post in these forums or responding to anything you say. Life is just too short, especially at my age.

Ed from Edinburgh - EdinFreeMan
Kids, this is one of main reasons why eddie will never grow out of micros. If you can't take critique and form arguments to back your decisions, you are going nowhere.
 
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Wed Dec 07, 2011, 09:42 AM
(#8)
topthecat's Avatar
Since: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,962
Ok guys, enough here!

If you cannot offer critique without demeaning the other person, then nothing positive can come of it!

We are looking for respectful discussions, not arguments.

Cheers,

TC
 
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Wed Dec 07, 2011, 09:51 AM
(#9)
Puciek's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 771
Quote:
Originally Posted by topthecat View Post
Ok guys, enough here!

If you cannot offer critique without demeaning the other person, then nothing positive can come of it!

We are looking for respectful discussions, not arguments.

Cheers,

TC
By demeaning you mean that i actually dared to question his read on opponent?
 
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Wed Dec 07, 2011, 10:29 AM
(#10)
ravenqueen76's Avatar
Since: Sep 2011
Posts: 75
preflop i would have done the same but i would not have reraised on the flop (but thats just me lol)
check/calling the other streets i would have done also, unless i had a read that the villain would call my reraises..most often i see that when you reraise they just fold

as a side note: i didnt put him on 23o either more something like a small pocket pair, higher suited connectors, Ax..but then again it is the micros

Last edited by ravenqueen76; Wed Dec 07, 2011 at 10:37 AM.. Reason: typo's
 
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Wed Dec 07, 2011, 11:10 AM
(#11)
EdinFreeMan's Avatar
Since: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,540
Quote:
Originally Posted by ravenqueen76 View Post
preflop i would have done the same but i would not have reraised on the flop (but thats just me lol)
check/calling the other streets i would have done also, unless i had a read that the villain would call my reraises..most often i see that when you reraise they just fold

as a side note: i didnt put him on 23o either more something like a small pocket pair, higher suited connectors, Ax..but then again it is the micros
When the opp bets the flop, and I am (wrongly) discounting him limp/calling my preflop raise with any 2 in hand, I am also not worried about AA or KK. So I think he might well have hit the flop with KQ/QJ/QT which are probably in his range and about the best holdings he could have from my point of view. This was probably wishful thinking and I should probably have flatted his bet on the flop.

As I say in the title and reiterated last post, my main concern was with the turn/river check/calling which worked here but I think I should probably have bet one or the other. I'm trying to decide if his betting the turn justifies my checking the river also. Again if he has the Qd he is probably going to bet, and whilst on the flop I am ahead with the Ace kicker by the turn/river we would be even for a chop.

Ed from Edinburgh - EdinFreeMan
 
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Wed Dec 07, 2011, 12:04 PM
(#12)
PokerPest72's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 247
BronzeStar
Hi Ed hope ur ok dude

I see nothing wrong with slow playing the semi nuts there, the op was willing to get chips in, but i cant for the life of me figure out that flop play dude, sorry just trying to be honest, first u cbet he 3bets u 4bet he 5bets, im losing count here lol basically u said i have AQ or KK or AA he was screaming at u dude i have trip 2,s, or maybe even the nut 2,s u got very lucky on that turn my friend quad 2,s would of reacted to your play the same way, so yes u can slow play the seminuts hand if u know your op is willing to put chips into the pot which he showed he is,but......On that flop and that raise bout i would of never seen a turn card.

Gl m8 just my opinion
 
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Wed Dec 07, 2011, 01:05 PM
(#13)
Puciek's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 771
Quote:
Originally Posted by PokerPest72 View Post
Hi Ed hope ur ok dude

I see nothing wrong with slow playing the semi nuts there, the op was willing to get chips in, but i cant for the life of me figure out that flop play dude, sorry just trying to be honest, first u cbet he 3bets u 4bet he 5bets, im losing count here lol basically u said i have AQ or KK or AA he was screaming at u dude i have trip 2,s, or maybe even the nut 2,s u got very lucky on that turn my friend quad 2,s would of reacted to your play the same way, so yes u can slow play the seminuts hand if u know your op is willing to put chips into the pot which he showed he is,but......On that flop and that raise bout i would of never seen a turn card.

Gl m8 just my opinion
You are indeed losing count, as there were only 3 bets OTF (0.11->0.22->0.7 or something like that if i recall right).
I wonder what do you mean by semi nuts? As OTT he got THE NUTS (not semi, just nuts [you discount someone having quads/royal flushes in real game, end of story]) and OTF he got TPTK which will more than often be the best hand, but is nowhere near semi nuts (which would be something like A2)
 
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Wed Dec 07, 2011, 02:02 PM
(#14)
oriholic's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 751
BronzeStar
Preflop is fine. Flop is pretty terrible. C-bet is okay since you can get value from Qx hands, pairs, flush draws, and bluffs. I definitely call his raise here as you are often ahead, but if you 3-bet you're unlikely to be called by worse except maybe a flush draw or KQ. I'd probably just check/call the flop as I think there's more value in him trying to take the pot away. But it would help if you had reads that he was prone to do this. Limp/calling 23o preflop kind of makes this unlikely though, so bet/call is probably the best. Bet/3-bet is really bad though at these levels.

On the turn you basically have the nuts, but at the same time it should look pretty unlikely that you have a Q, making this a great spot to bet. Just follow up your flop over-aggression. You hit your miracle card. He can call you with a lot worse. By check/calling with your 1 PSB stack you really do say "I'm slow-playing the nuts and you're falling for it" and it should be a duh check behind for him. Just bet the turn.
 
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Wed Dec 07, 2011, 02:34 PM
(#15)
EdinFreeMan's Avatar
Since: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,540
Quote:
Originally Posted by oriholic View Post
Preflop is fine. Flop is pretty terrible. C-bet is okay since you can get value from Qx hands, pairs, flush draws, and bluffs. I definitely call his raise here as you are often ahead, but if you 3-bet you're unlikely to be called by worse except maybe a flush draw or KQ. I'd probably just check/call the flop as I think there's more value in him trying to take the pot away. But it would help if you had reads that he was prone to do this. Limp/calling 23o preflop kind of makes this unlikely though, so bet/call is probably the best. Bet/3-bet is really bad though at these levels.

On the turn you basically have the nuts, but at the same time it should look pretty unlikely that you have a Q, making this a great spot to bet. Just follow up your flop over-aggression. You hit your miracle card. He can call you with a lot worse. By check/calling with your 1 PSB stack you really do say "I'm slow-playing the nuts and you're falling for it" and it should be a duh check behind for him. Just bet the turn.
I am a bit hazy remembering why I did the flop betting, we were short handed and I thought ranges would widen and aggression increase, but I remember instantly thinking my extra bet was bad, then hitting the turn and going phew, now I have them. Again though, I was confused about what s/he might have that would stay in the hand, and probably still hoping they had TT/JJ/KK/AA and would keep betting it supposing I had no 2 or Q.

Obviously I posted this for analysis because despite winning I was pretty sure I was doing something horrible, I just wasn't sure exactly what.

Thanks for all the input.

Good luck

Ed from Edinburgh - EdinFreeMan
 
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Wed Dec 07, 2011, 02:36 PM
(#16)
PokerPest72's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 247
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Puciek View Post
You are indeed losing count, as there were only 3 bets OTF (0.11->0.22->0.7 or something like that if i recall right).
I wonder what do you mean by semi nuts? As OTT he got THE NUTS (not semi, just nuts [you discount someone having quads/royal flushes in real game, end of story]) and OTF he got TPTK which will more than often be the best hand, but is nowhere near semi nuts (which would be something like A2)

I thought the nuts could not be beat.

Last edited by PokerPest72; Wed Dec 07, 2011 at 02:37 PM.. Reason: another typo lol
 
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Wed Dec 07, 2011, 02:44 PM
(#17)
Puciek's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 771
Quote:
Originally Posted by PokerPest72 View Post
I thought the nuts could not be beat.
Generally yes, but odds of someone having straight-flush/quads are so damn rare that folding "because he may have them" is a very serious leak (in general, if you have 4395843958439843934 pages long history with villain this can be taken into account). It simply is far far far far more likely that he is bluffing than that he has them.
 
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Wed Dec 07, 2011, 02:45 PM
(#18)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
The nut hand cannot be beaten on the current street, but if there are cards which could come to change the nut hand, the nut may not STAY the nut hand...

Happens all the time:

Ah 3h 9d flop, nut = set of aces.

9h turn , nut = quad 9's, then various boats, then a K hi flush.

2h river, nut = 4h5h for the steel wheel (straight flush 5 hi)...

The nut does not stay the nut all that often.

 
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Wed Dec 07, 2011, 04:48 PM
(#19)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,800
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I'm fine with it preflop. I don't like the 3-bet on the flop. If it were me, I'd have just called their raise. Anyone that calls a 3-bet on the flop will have a 2, which means you're behind.
On the turn/river, no problem with the check/calling... unless.... they didn't bet enough to put me all-in on the river... then I'm shoving what I've got left.
 
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Wed Dec 07, 2011, 04:53 PM
(#20)
EdinFreeMan's Avatar
Since: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,540
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWK24 View Post
I'm fine with it preflop. I don't like the 3-bet on the flop. If it were me, I'd have just called their raise. Anyone that calls a 3-bet on the flop will have a 2, which means you're behind.
On the turn/river, no problem with the check/calling... unless.... they didn't bet enough to put me all-in on the river... then I'm shoving what I've got left.
thanks JWK - that got back to the question I was asking originally, and although if they check the river I am losing value, if they bet, but less than I have, I am shoving it all in.

Ed from Edinburgh - EdinFreeMan
 

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