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Players in $0.25 45 man SNG

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Players in $0.25 45 man SNG - Thu Dec 08, 2011, 09:37 AM
(#1)
Tomcrockpot's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 140
In the post I put in the hand analysis forum yesterday http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/for...hoving-on-flop the topic of blind stealing came up and JWK24 mentioned I shouldn't really be doing it in those tourneys since most of the players are donks / loose passive / bad lags and just playing tight is enough.

However I've noticed lately a lot more nitty players in these tourneys, to the point where they consistently out number the donks and stealing is essential once you hit the mid stages to maintain a healthy stack.

For example these are the stats of the players on my table around mid stages of a tourney (I think around 20 players left) I was playing earlier.

8 / 4
22 / 11
11 / 9
60 / 26
12 / 8
24 / 24
12 / 12
16 / 16
27 / 19 (me, slightly looser than I'd normally play since running good)

mostly TAGs and nits and only one donk.. who got knocked out pretty fast after this.

I was finding I was having to steal to keep my chips up and it was working.

On final table now, and it is all TAGs / nits. Fortunately most of them aren't aware of stealing as a strategy. My steal attempt % is 30, but aside from 2 others who have a similar stat the rest don't seem to be trying at all.

Also, luckily some of the nits are a little CS like and will call when they don't have the odds.

Even so, these games are definitely a little tougher than they used to be.

I know a lot of you guys here play them. What has been your experiences with these, are the donks deserting them?

Last edited by Tomcrockpot; Thu Dec 08, 2011 at 09:38 AM.. Reason: missed something
 
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Thu Dec 08, 2011, 11:29 AM
(#2)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,510
(Head Trainer)
Hey Tom,

I can't speak to the state of these games in general, but I will offer a couple thoughts...

For last night's live training I did part 1 of a review of a $1 45-man played by PSO member Jimmy Trap. The opponents in Jimmy Trap's game were for the large part, loose and extremely bad.

The other thought is that imo, nits don't make the game tougher. Nits are just as exploitable as the loose donks you're referring to (just exploitable in different ways).

If your table is playing largely nitty then opening up and stealing more is a correct adjustment, just be careful to pay attention to stack sizes and adjust accordingly. The vpips of 8, 11, 12, and 12 all seem like good steal targets just based on their stats alone.
 
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Thu Dec 08, 2011, 11:46 AM
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JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,819
(Super-Moderator)
BronzeStar
Dave,

This is the exact game you did a member review for m.bisland on a couple weeks ago. Remember how bad the play was in it?
 
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Thu Dec 08, 2011, 11:47 AM
(#4)
Tomcrockpot's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 140
Thanks for your thoughts.

I think you are right, nits replacing loose donks doesn't actually make things much harder, just requires a change in strategy which it's taken me a few games to start to get the hang of.

Thankfully a lot of these players (even some of the TAGs) will not let go of a decent hand once they have one (e.g they overbet with trips and lose to my flush) so with the right cards you can ladder climb pretty quick still.

Yes the players you highlighted were extremely lucrative to me. One or two of them were so passive it was ridiculous and would fold to any aggression at all.

Unfortunately with these tight players it seems the games take a lot longer, but I was able to enter the final table has chip leader and finish first.

Last edited by Tomcrockpot; Thu Dec 08, 2011 at 11:48 AM.. Reason: correction
 
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Thu Dec 08, 2011, 11:52 AM
(#5)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,819
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BronzeStar
Tom,

Those numbers are way lower than when I was playing in those.
A typical table for me in them was 2-3 calling stations, 3-4 LAG's, maybe a TAG or 2 and possibly 1 nit.

The lowest numbers here are good candidates for a steal, but when you do it, make sure you have position on them.

Let me send a message about this thread to Moxie, he's played a ton of these quarters and we'll get his 2 cents on them.
 
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Thu Dec 08, 2011, 01:33 PM
(#6)
darkmajik365's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 191
I played 100 of these for the cowboys challenge and in general i never purely just steal i would only open a hand that i was willing to play if i was not in a steal position (slightly losser range tough) unless i had reads that the blinds were extremely tight like you did. Occasionally i would get a few games that were as tight as the one you have mentioned above and in general they were at certain times of the day generally around 5pm Greenwich mean time (uk about 12 est i believe) but by 17.00 est these games were far looser and softer to play in, the only time i would have stack issues were if i was not dealt a premium and was unable to accumulate chips due to being card dead or missing flops etc, and in that case i would be willing to take a shot with say suited middling cards over a limper or shoving into the blinds from the button on the read that i was pretty sure they would fold, this can be dangerous as the favorite call of an 8 to12 bb stack shove is j10 off suit so generally patience is the key and jamming strong aces or pocket pairs is the way to go as you will be called very lightly. I would say however that by the last 2 tables of play most tourneys tighten up considerably and this is the best time to steal from those that you notice are tight as it becomes a game of survival for them rather than a tourney they should be playing to win.

Last edited by darkmajik365; Thu Dec 08, 2011 at 01:43 PM..
 
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Thu Dec 08, 2011, 01:35 PM
(#7)
darkmajik365's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 191
Oh forgot to add in general the play in these is awful and most of the time you will have 9 or 10 players busted in the first blind level alone.
 
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Thu Dec 08, 2011, 01:35 PM
(#8)
Swaxwell's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 315
I agree Tom, in the mid-late stages of these tourneys a lot of players do to tend to nit up and we can and should exploit these players. I often find that just sitting back and waiting for a good hand will not leave me with enough chips for the final table, so as the blinds and antes go up blind stealing in the right spots can be important.

I have found that it is not infrequent for a stack as short as 4-5bb to leverage quite a lot of fold equity at this level, so exploiting these folders in an unopened pot with almost ATC is actually +Ev. See Dave's class on fold equity in the video section for a mathematical breakdown of how this is true, I found it to be an eye-opener.

I read the following somewhere that also made me think; we want to make sure that we are playing a true TAG style and not a nit style, and 2/3 of TAG is AG.
 
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Thu Dec 08, 2011, 01:39 PM
(#9)
darkmajik365's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 191
Quote:
Originally Posted by Swaxwell View Post
I agree Tom, in the mid-late stages of these tourneys a lot of players do to tend to nit up and we can and should exploit these players. I often find that just sitting back and waiting for a good hand will not leave me with enough chips for the final table, so as the blinds and antes go up blind stealing in the right spots can be important.

I have found that it is not infrequent for a stack as short as 4-5bb to leverage quite a lot of fold equity at this level, so exploiting these folders in an unopened pot with almost ATC is actually +Ev. See Dave's class on fold equity in the video section for a mathematical breakdown of how this is true, I found it to be an eye-opener.

I read the following somewhere that also made me think; we want to make sure that we are playing a true TAG style and not a nit style, and 2/3 of TAG is AG.
Completely agree it is all read dependent but yeah as you approach the final table players will get tighter unless you have a big stack with 100vpip these players will be splashing around and in some cases have 15,000 or more chips, and have definitely seen a 4 or 5 bb ship gain a lot of folds.
 
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Thu Dec 08, 2011, 01:40 PM
(#10)
Swaxwell's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 315
PS I have actually been playing the 50c turbos so the dynamic is a little different to the regular speed 25c games, but I still think that exploting nity players in the blinds can be valuable in the regular speed games.
 
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Thu Dec 08, 2011, 04:40 PM
(#11)
hamburglarid's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 131
SilverStar
Switch to the 90's, they are full of super loose donks. I think there is more value in them if you have a little more time.
 
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Thu Dec 08, 2011, 06:00 PM
(#12)
pokerstar671's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,206
I noticed that what time you play makes a difference sometimes.
 
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Thu Dec 08, 2011, 06:35 PM
(#13)
Tomcrockpot's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 140
Yeah, maybe time does make a difference. Probably more donks at some times than others. I'm usually late afternoon / early evening UK time.

Will maybe give the 90s a go. I played a $0.50 45 man turbo just now and was definitely chock full of LAGs, trouble is, in a turbo format that makes it harder since if you don't get a decent hand you are screwed since you can't bluff or steal against these guys. Even so, I still made it to 14th by just playing basic TAG before I was blinded out, so if I'd had at least one premium hand would have stood a good chance of running deep.
 
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Thu Dec 08, 2011, 06:36 PM
(#14)
pokerstar671's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,206
I played a couple of these and I just been using the spacegravy beginner sng in the videos section of PSO video section to know what hands to play early in the tournament.

I think later you have to learn when to push or fold like what ranges of hands to do this with. I think that stealing blinds is good if you have a tight image on the table or if they are tight also.

I have been in a few where we will be 5 handed for a really long time nearing the final table and having good reads and knowing when to shove all in can help you alot to get there.

So like if the players tight just open up your range a little bit if you have position and stuff like that to steal theier blinds.

I also agree with what darkmajik and swaxxwell said
 
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Thu Dec 08, 2011, 06:37 PM
(#15)
pokerstar671's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,206
I just play the .50c games like the .10c games pretty much the same thing.
 
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Thu Dec 08, 2011, 08:22 PM
(#16)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomcrockpot View Post
In the post I put in the hand analysis forum yesterday http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/for...hoving-on-flop the topic of blind stealing came up and JWK24 mentioned I shouldn't really be doing it in those tourneys since most of the players are donks / loose passive / bad lags and just playing tight is enough.

However I've noticed lately a lot more nitty players in these tourneys, to the point where they consistently out number the donks and stealing is essential once you hit the mid stages to maintain a healthy stack.

For example these are the stats of the players on my table around mid stages of a tourney (I think around 20 players left) I was playing earlier.

8 / 4
22 / 11
11 / 9
60 / 26
12 / 8
24 / 24
12 / 12
16 / 16
27 / 19 (me, slightly looser than I'd normally play since running good)

mostly TAGs and nits and only one donk.. who got knocked out pretty fast after this.

I was finding I was having to steal to keep my chips up and it was working.

On final table now, and it is all TAGs / nits. Fortunately most of them aren't aware of stealing as a strategy. My steal attempt % is 30, but aside from 2 others who have a similar stat the rest don't seem to be trying at all.

Also, luckily some of the nits are a little CS like and will call when they don't have the odds.

Even so, these games are definitely a little tougher than they used to be.

I know a lot of you guys here play them. What has been your experiences with these, are the donks deserting them?
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWK24 View Post
Tom,

Those numbers are way lower than when I was playing in those.
A typical table for me in them was 2-3 calling stations, 3-4 LAG's, maybe a TAG or 2 and possibly 1 nit.

The lowest numbers here are good candidates for a steal, but when you do it, make sure you have position on them.

Let me send a message about this thread to Moxie, he's played a ton of these quarters and we'll get his 2 cents on them.

Well I wouldn't say I played a ton of them (around 300 45 man's and 50 90 man's before BF) but I did run roughly 32% ITM with a +37% ROI in the 45's and 25% with a +30% ROI in the 90's.
They are what got me out of an original hole on OPR from playing the .10 360's and even worse the .02 Hyper-Turbo Donkfests.

You want someone who has truly played a ton of them then Cowboy is your man.

That being said I'll throw my 2 cents in from my observations of what I saw on these when I played them.

First a caveat...after American players were suspended from real money play Stars started charging .02 rake in these games. Whether some of the grinder types at these levels (and there are players that will load anywhere from 25-100 of these a day) have adjusted their style to account for this difference I wouldn't know,not being able to play them. I can say that some likely have,as I know there were some of these guys that played a huge sample to a +5-10% ROI result and those same type of results under the new payout structure wouldn't get it done for a profit. Just the drop from $3.52 to $3.23 for first place in these under the new payouts is significant as it's a drop of more than 1 buy-in. Over a large sample that adds up.

So my observations from when I was playing these...

1. The single most prevalent player type in the ones I played was definitely the looser type of player. They could range anywhere from the ATC all-in whack-jobs,to the LAP players (play way too many pots,always open-limp,call it down with any piece of the board and will open shove their premium hands,which to me has always been something that I consider a PASSIVE play,as they're playing a premium hand scared about it being drawn out on and punting value in the process) to the classic LAG player. Not as many of these and even less of them are good at it as they usually don't know when to give up on a hand.

2. Second you have the passive tight players,from nits to just standard tight range players who don't display any aggressiveness at all. I called them the "monkey see,monkey do" players in my notes---meaning that they almost never make an aggressive play to take control of the action but would rather just follow along in hands to get to a showdown. So a tight calling station style---definite loser style as they would need a 85%+ showdown number to get anywhere playing like that and that ain't gonna happen too often.

3. Then you have the TAG type players. Gotta say that these were easily the least prevalent player type in the ones I played and more often than not if I pulled them up on OPR they would be players that were grinding a lot of these and knew what style played well in them and just slavishly stuck with it (much like myself really...). More on that in a bit.

So what to do with this info?

Well I think we all have read more than enough info as to handling the ATC all-in donkey types here so I'll stick with the last 2 sets---the Nitty passive types and the TAG solid ABC types.

First the Nits,passive calling station types. This is where note taking becomes very important. Tom when you post the VPIP/Pre-flop raise % numbers that you did here my question becomes how many hands is this derived from for each player? If this was your first time seeing each of the players here then you are in "take it with a grain of salt" range. Yes you do have to go by what you see sometimes if that's all you have to work with but note taking can change that. If I had notes on a player as the type that would nit up and play for a min-cash at the bubble and those notes were derived over a several encounters with them then I had something more tangible to go with and would straight abuse them every chance I could. A lot,and I mean A LOT,of players in these will go turtle at the bubble and wait for other players to bust so they can ladder climb to a cash. If you have good notes on them BEFORE that bubble/FT then you can start taking advantage immediately instead of having to wait an orbit or 2 to get a feel of who plays in what fashion.

Look,if you are afraid to play in advantageous spots in these to try and be safe and get a 6th or 7th place finish then you are NEVER going to be profitable in them.

I would rather bust out at 8-12th place trying to get to a top 3 finish every time than pass on +EV spots where winning a flip even can get me a top 3 stack when the bubble bursts. Reason being flips will break 50/50 over a large sample roughly,that's why they're flips. I get a top 3 stack when the bubble breaks just one time out of 7 times in those flips and it holds for a third only then the math is simple. One 3rd place finish for $1.70 versus 7 $0.25 buy-ins for $1.75. So even hitting 1 out of 7 times if you make the stack hold for as little as a 3rd place finish is enough to break even. The reality is if you're finding the right spots to push hard at the bubble in these you'll fare much better than that. Dave is 1000% correct in his post---Nits are just as,if not MORE,exploitable than ATC maniac types.

For the more solid TAG types like I said a lot of times these are players who grind a big number of these games. If that's the case I found that most of the time once you have a book on them you'll never have to deviate from it as they tend to have so many tables open at once that they aren't doing anything fancy and are just sticking to a rote strategy that works for them. Keep in mind that in many cases this will be just as position driven as it is cards driven.

To me the first and foremost strategy in these is to try and make the bubble every time you play. To my school of thought that was the last 12 players in a 45 man and the last 18 in a 90 man. You do that time after time you WILL benefit from it if you know who to attack and if you aren't afraid to take chances and gamble a little bit. Don't be afraid to bust out late trying to get a bigger stack when a decent opportunity to do so presents itself. Playing for the top 2 in these late is very +EV.

Last edited by Moxie Pip; Thu Dec 08, 2011 at 08:28 PM..
 
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Thu Dec 08, 2011, 08:28 PM
(#17)
m.bisland's Avatar
Since: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,260
BronzeStar
There are a few players to avoid in these games I have them noted. Archfish is the biggest this guy made over $300 last month playing these Google him he done a review in some magazine how to win them. Anenukes she only ever shoves AA KK QQ if she flat calls it will be any pair or AK AQ AJ A10. there are a few more I can't think off atm. I also find in the micros that if they raise really stupid they have a big hand. If u hit a big hand let them bet u just call they will be all in come the river
 
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Thu Dec 08, 2011, 08:43 PM
(#18)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
Quote:
Originally Posted by m.bisland View Post
There are a few players to avoid in these games I have them noted. Archfish is the biggest this guy made over $300 last month playing these Google him he done a review in some magazine how to win them. Anenukes she only ever shoves AA KK QQ if she flat calls it will be any pair or AK AQ AJ A10. there are a few more I can't think off atm. I also find in the micros that if they raise really stupid they have a big hand. If u hit a big hand let them bet u just call they will be all in come the river

Archfish...yep he's about as solid as you'll find in these and will go "outside of the box" and mix his play up at times.

Don't know if they're still knocking around much in these but other players I found to be very solid when I could play them were Gusivan,Papa Tomate,ZM3COUPE and Kockapoker. kocka has for sure moved up in levels though (and probably playing 100-200 games a day whatever he's playing still...).

One thing to remember with these players...yes most of them are probably playing a lot of tables at once but they aren't oblivious to what's going on. IF you give them a reason to respect you as they see you a few times they will. Unlike the vast majority of the players in these who are playing Level 1 poker and only consider THEIR holdings in every decision they make.
 
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Multi tablers - Thu Dec 08, 2011, 09:34 PM
(#19)
bearxing's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 499
There are lots of multi tablers playing these currently, especially during evening hours in Europe. Tournaments can have 60% or more entrants who ar playiing multiple tables or are not searchable and playing a TAG style. I am finding them still beatable though.
 
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Fri Dec 09, 2011, 08:31 AM
(#20)
Tomcrockpot's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 140
Great post moxie thanks.

The dynamic of these tournaments does seem to be changing a bit. Although still very winnable. I think the time of day you play also makes a difference although I'm yet to figure out the donk times and the nit times.. Will take notes on my next few tourneys and see if I can spot a pattern
 

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