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What would you have done.

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What would you have done. - Fri Dec 09, 2011, 05:50 AM
(#1)
stonespirit7's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 6
I had poket kings and raised 4 times the pot which was about 400. One person called. (this was still early in the tournement) the flop is ace 9 7. he raises 480. I folded. I have no idea what he had but was it right to fold or not.
Thanks
( sorry i don't know how to show my game )
 
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Fri Dec 09, 2011, 06:02 AM
(#2)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
The very first selection under the 'Requests' tab in the Pokerstars lobby allows you to have your hand histories emailed to you. Just copy and paste that into a hand convertor like the one on this site or the one here:

http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php

There's a lot of info in the full text that would add to your story and give a fuller picture. We'll even be able to give you some in-depth explanations why we think your play is strategically bad or good.

If you need any help with anything else, we'd be glad to give advice. Welcome to the forum!
 
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does this help - Fri Dec 09, 2011, 07:04 AM
(#3)
stonespirit7's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 6
hope this helps
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, 0 Tournament, 20/40 Blinds (9 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (MP2) (t1500)
MP3 (t1480)
CO (t1880)
Button (t1500)
SB (t1460)
BB (t1500)
UTG (t1060)
UTG+1 (t1460)
MP1 (t1660)

Hero's M: 25.00

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with K, K
UTG calls t40, 2 folds, Hero bets t240, MP3 calls t240, 5 folds

Flop: (t580) A, 7, 9 (2 players)
Hero checks, MP3 bets t280, Hero folds

Total pot: t580

Results:
MP3 didn't show
Outcome: MP3 won t580
 
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Fri Dec 09, 2011, 07:27 AM
(#4)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
I think that your preflop bet was a bit big. You could have gotten away with a T160 bet, which would have made the pot significantly smaller on the flop. That would have allowed you to bet on the flop without putting too much of your stack at risk. You could have given up if you got action, but since you could very easily have AK or AQ from the villain's perspective (and he might not), I think you have to bet the flop. The size of the pot just makes that really awkward.

As played, I think that a c-bet of about 1/4 or 1/3 of the pot might have been fine if the villain wasn't especially aggressive or crazy, since a lot of opponents would just give up if they didn't make a pair, regardless of the size of your bet. After checking, I think your fold is fine.
 
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Fri Dec 09, 2011, 07:55 AM
(#5)
stonespirit7's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 6
 
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Fri Dec 09, 2011, 08:32 AM
(#6)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Pre flop, your raise is VERY SLIGHTLY larger than a standard 3bb + 1BB per limper raise (300 to go). This is moot really, because:

1) Your hand (KK) WANTS a big pre flop pot if you can get it
2) If you think 1 or 2 of the limpers will CALL that extra BB you added, it is good for you
3) 4BB open raises (a 4BB + 1BB per limper standard) is an "old school" sizing, and as long as you understand the implications of it, it still carries some validity.

About point #3:

I call 4BB raises "old school", because they used to be the standard as that amount is what it takes to deny at least 2 to 1 odds for the big blind to call along. Newer poker thinking has seen the adoption of 3BB open raises, or even 2.2 to 2.5BB open raises, due to the looser and more aggressive poker played now-a-days. The smaller raises to open allow more FREQUENT raises, and also tend not to hurt your stack as much if you must fold the raise to a 3bet.

Because your KK is so strong though, you obviously are not folding to a 3bet of any kind. In fact, if you DO get 3bet, the slightly larger raise sizing actually forces a "standard" 3bet amount (1.5 to 2.5 more than your raise amount, or 600 to 840 to go) easily sets you up to move all in pre flop when you hold the 2nd nut hand. So all in all, that is GOOD for you.

The only thing you should be aware of is that you really should be looking at adopting a STANDARD pre flop raise size amount. You want to do this because you derive benefit when you "balance" your range with pre flop actions which conceal the strength of your hand. To do this, you really should be making 4BB to go your standard open raise amount whether you have AA/KK (as here), or whether you have ATo Late or middle position, or if you are on a total BTN steal of the blinds.

If you are doing the 4BB raise amount for ALL your raises, it is impossible for opponents to know which part, the top end or the bottom end, of your raise range you are on. Of course you also will tend to have to FOLD larger amounts if/when you get 3bet on the low end of your range. You really do NOT want to vary your sizing to try to prevent this when you are on your low end (3BB AT in MP/LP, and 4BB AA/KK/QQ) because that shows a pattern in your betting; opponents might be able to pick up on that pattern, and adjust to your play.

So as long as you understand the implications, your pre flop raise sizing is fine here...

You get 1 caller.

Flop comes A high.

Now...

This is one of those implications of your larger raise sizing pre flop, but realistically you;d be i much the same boat here with a smaller sizing too...

A standard C-Bet on the flop would be roughly half pot.

If you make that standard C-bet, you will have put FAR too much of your stack into the pot to really like folding.

Your caller has position on you, so you have no clue on whether he likes this flop or not until AFTER you have made your decision.

Based on all this, your check, instead of a C-Bet, is perfectly fin. It may be PAINFUL to check/fold KK on an A hi flop, but with so much of a call range tied up in Aces here, you cannot risk the villain feeling committed if he has even a weak top pair hand; all that would do is cost you a ton (likely your whole stack).

So all in all, you played the hand just fine. Yes, it sucks when an A pops on the flop and you've raised KK, but at least you folded without committing MORE here, or at least you didn't try a rash pressure move to get the villain off an A (if he has one), when he'd have every reason to feel committed here himself after HIS flop bet.

Well played.

Hope it helps.

-JDean
 
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Fri Dec 09, 2011, 03:59 PM
(#7)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDean View Post
Pre flop, your raise is VERY SLIGHTLY larger than a standard 3bb + 1BB per limper raise (300 to go).
T160 to go would be the correct amount, I believe. Hero here opened for 6bb with only one limper in front.

Quote:
This is one of those implications of your larger raise sizing pre flop, but realistically you;d be i much the same boat here with a smaller sizing too...
I disagree with this, JDean. It sounds like you're saying that had he opened for less, the situation would be the exact same. But had he opened for 4bb and the flop pot ended up being around T420, the following would not be true.

Quote:
If you make that standard C-bet, you will have put FAR too much of your stack into the pot to really like folding.
He could then make a standard continuation bet and pick up all of the pots where the villain didn't make a pair of aces or better.

Perhaps the Hero here was getting value from the oversized open in all of the cases where the flop doesn't contain an ace and he has the best hand, but I think that making a smaller open still has a lot of merit.
 

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