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was this ok??

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was this ok?? - Sun Dec 11, 2011, 01:31 AM
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Stakehorse75's Avatar
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Sun Dec 11, 2011, 01:33 AM
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Stakehorse75's Avatar
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I realize I wasn't ahead, but wtf was the guy with Ks3s even thinking??
 
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Sun Dec 11, 2011, 01:34 AM
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PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
I think so. If you knew that someone behind you was likely to call with the big blind's range, then definitely yes.
 
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Sun Dec 11, 2011, 01:41 AM
(#4)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
Given the dead money in the pot, you had the pot odds to run the board against the pocket pair, even if the big blind had folded. You might not have been ahead, but you were close enough.

When you're in push/fold mode, it's all about shoving with a strong enough range to actually be better than the ranges your opponents will be comfortable calling with (so it's a no-brainer shove if you predicted the BB's calling range). I think AQs is almost a borderline shove, but once those blinds pass, your stack will be hit hard, so that's even more of a reason to take any good hand and shove it.
 
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Sun Dec 11, 2011, 01:58 AM
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Stakehorse75's Avatar
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thanks Panicky, I'm starting to learn when I need to be more agressive. I guess I'm just used to slow playing the donkeys, and then after they have most of their chips in(65%), making the move.
 
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Sun Dec 11, 2011, 02:38 AM
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Puciek's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 771
There are 2 schools of poker here, conservative and aggressive one. Conservative will say - fold pref. Aggressive will tell you to go all-in pre and be happy like a monkey on tranquilizers.
Important note is that conservative school representatives didn't win anything since Eisenhower administration left the office.
 
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Sun Dec 11, 2011, 02:45 AM
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JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
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Obviously, your shove first to act on AQs with 10BB is just fine.

If the question is whether the BB is ok in calling, well that is debate-able...

He is risking about 22% of his stack here, and taking himself from roughly 39BB down to 30BB if he loses. If he feels confident in his short stack play, there is not a whole lot of difference in play-ability in those stacks sizes...would I want to lose that much on a pretty weak sheriff, no, probably not. But the effect on his chance of winning the MTT is not garguatuan.

What RANGE does he need to put you both on to make a call feasible though...

YOU are short enough to be quite wide really.
If we credit you as wide as a 35% shove range, that includes most Aces, suited or not, some weak dominating Ks, some weak Q's he is ahead of, and even some suited middle 1 gappers...pretty wide.

The SB should be tighter than this, as he is calling all in.
If we put him on a range that gives him roughly 51% equity vs you (reasonable since he is so short), that gives about a 30% range to the SB.

Versus BOTH those ranges, the K3s has right about 27.2% equity versus both ranges.

Villain is getting 2.16 to 1 on a call here. this means the BB would need right around 31.7% equity to make his call break even. He doesn't quite have that, but he isn't too far off really...

If this were a final table, the call is probably quite weak, since the BB would be risking giving one of the 2 short stacks a BIG chip up. But in the middle stages of the event, that is not quite so important. A lot of what would need to be weighed to make a call ok here for him though, is the ranges for both you and the SB.

I'll be really honest, K3s is pretty weak if your range is even slightly tighter than I give.
I played with poker stove a bit, and it appears that it would take K9s to give the BB about 30.9% equity, and KTs would give him about 33.9%. So somewhere in there lies the bottom end of the suited Ks you'd want to play if you assigned the range I do to both of your stands.

Can he REALLY be faulted as a total donk for going with K3s here?

Not really...

If the call were for about 10% of his stack, I'd be completely fine with it to be honest, even though it is a bit -eV.
For 22% of a stack though, I'm not sure I like it quite as much...

But a lot would come down to how much gamble you are willing to include in your game, and how valuable knocking 2 people out are.

Last edited by JDean; Sun Dec 11, 2011 at 03:09 AM..
 
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Sun Dec 11, 2011, 12:45 PM
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JWK24's Avatar
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I like it Stake. If you put in a std raise, it's costing you 30% of your stack and I think you're better off shoving here to maximize your fold equity. If you get called, you have a very playable hand in AQs.

The opp with 44 decided it was time to be in a race, as they have to expect you to have at best case for them, 2 overs and worst case, to be dominated.

The opp with K3s (way too many people think that any suited cards is a premium hand). If it would cost them less chips to get into the pot, then I could see taking a chance, but that's too many chips in my eyes for them to call (too large of a -EV to call).
 
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Thu Dec 15, 2011, 12:19 AM
(#9)
rule110's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 147
I think you played this fine, Stakehorse. Folding, or limping, or raising anything other than AI w/ AdQd here wouldn't be very good for <10bb.

The guy with Ks3s... I don't think the call there is all that bad, as JDean has shown, he was getting close to the right odds on a call given that you both had reasonable ranges.

Knocking people out of mtts and sngs is valuable, it is a form of implied odds that can be factored into decisions occasionally, as when you knock your opponents out you increase your chances of winning the tournament outright (which is what you want). Calls like this may create a "crazy" image that you can be used, at different stages of the tournament, to dominate and exploit your table (a nice situation to be in) as your now increased chipstack can be used to push around your shorter tablemates with little risk to your own tournament life (this makes you harder to read). People tend to tighten up because you have shown them you will play with them (making them easier to read) and if there is anyone with a greater chipstack than you at your table they have to be cautious with you because you become a real threat to them, like AAgremioAA at this table.

Last edited by rule110; Thu Dec 15, 2011 at 12:22 AM..
 

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