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analise please

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analise please - Thu Dec 15, 2011, 05:11 AM
(#1)
holdemace486's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,760
*********** # 1 **************
PokerStars Game #72192179075: Hold'em No Limit ($0.01/$0.02 USD) - 2011/12/15 5:07:54 ET
Table 'Stentor' 6-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: DimScreamer ($1.20 in chips)
Seat 2: nyxoBuk ($5 in chips)
Seat 3: Chinga4kuk ($4.23 in chips)
Seat 4: marinutsa1 ($4.37 in chips)
Seat 5: holdemace486 ($1.87 in chips)
Seat 6: RomanZap1 ($1.89 in chips)
RomanZap1: posts small blind $0.01
DimScreamer: posts big blind $0.02
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to holdemace486 [Ks Ac]
nyxoBuk: folds
Chinga4kuk: folds
marinutsa1: calls $0.02
holdemace486: raises $0.16 to $0.18
RomanZap1: folds
DimScreamer: folds
marinutsa1: raises $0.96 to $1.14
holdemace486: raises $0.73 to $1.87 and is all-in
marinutsa1: calls $0.73
*** FLOP *** [Tc Js 3s]
*** TURN *** [Tc Js 3s] [4s]
*** RIVER *** [Tc Js 3s 4s] [3d]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
marinutsa1: shows [Qh Qc] (two pair, Queens and Threes)
holdemace486: shows [Ks Ac] (a pair of Threes)
marinutsa1 collected $3.59 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $3.77 | Rake $0.18
Board [Tc Js 3s 4s 3d]
Seat 1: DimScreamer (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 2: nyxoBuk folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: Chinga4kuk folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: marinutsa1 showed [Qh Qc] and won ($3.59) with two pair, Queens and Threes
Seat 5: holdemace486 (button) showed [Ks Ac] and lost with a pair of Threes
Seat 6: RomanZap1 (small blind) folded before Flop
 
Old
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Thu Dec 15, 2011, 05:41 AM
(#2)
royalraise85's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 26,018
(Community Coordinator)
I don't like it!

Maybe if I was short stacked (less that 12 BB) in a tournament but never more and never at a Cash table.

Any situation like this is going to result in a coin flip at best.

He's after screaming at you that he has a big pocket pair.

Raiser


Moderator

Bracelet Winner


 
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Thu Dec 15, 2011, 06:41 AM
(#3)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
NO,NO,NO.

This is bad holdem. You do not need,nor want, to be playing AK like this on cash tables.

Should you raise pre-flop here? Yes,but not nearly as much as you did. For one thing would you raise a hand like a mid-pair (66-99,1010 even) like this? What's your standard range pattern in 2NL? If you don't have one and instead raise big with the strongest hands,small-medium with good hands and just flat with speculative hands, then that is a highly exploitable pattern. I'm betting that's what you do.

Find a standard pattern and stick to it,3x betting and then another 1BB for each limper,for example. So here a bet of .08 would have been much more in line. And then if the villain comes over top it's much easier for you to get away from the hand if they shove or after a missed flop if they only re-raise you enough pre-flop that you decide to call and see the flop.

It's OK to switch off of that some in relation to position but if you do it by quality of hands the more attentive players are going to use it against you.

So make a smaller re-raise next time and if the villain wants to play for stacks then you have to know what kind of read you have on them. Remember you are basically just as far behind 22 as you are QQ,that meaning ANY pair is essentially a coin flip with you as a slight dog. Except of course AA and KK,both of which have you crushed,especially AA.

Risking your stack pre-flop in 2NL on what most times is going to be nothing better than a coin flip isn't good poker. 2NL has enough exploitable players in it that you simply do not need to be doing this.
 
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Thu Dec 15, 2011, 06:48 AM
(#4)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
The villain needs to be doing this (limp/backraise) with AK and AQ and no pairs below JJ for you just to be ahead. If they're not, chances are it's not even worth chasing the dead money in the pot. People just aren't crazy enough for this to work out for you enough to be profitable. Also, what's with the crazy big raise to begin with? Are you raising bigger with bigger hands? That's not typically a good idea.
 
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Thu Dec 15, 2011, 07:05 AM
(#5)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
Quote:
Originally Posted by PanickyPoker View Post
The villain needs to be doing this (limp/backraise) with AK and AQ and no pairs below JJ for you just to be ahead. If they're not, chances are it's not even worth chasing the dead money in the pot. People just aren't crazy enough for this to work out for you enough to be profitable. Also, what's with the crazy big raise to begin with? Are you raising bigger with bigger hands? That's not typically a good idea.

Don't sugarcoat it Count. The word you're looking for is that's not EVER a good idea.
 
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Thu Dec 15, 2011, 08:08 AM
(#6)
roomik17's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 4,556
BronzeStar
Here are a few pointers get the most out of your posts in this forum:
1. One hand per thread – attempting to analyze multiple hands in one thread can be confusing. Please post multiple threads unless you have a valid reason (like showing a set-up hand or previous action of a villain).
2 Proper thread name – Make the thread title relevant. "PSO league tough multiway turn spot", "nl25 AKs facing 4-bet pre from nit" are examples of good titles.
3 Cover your hand and hide the results – refrain from posting the results as they can influence how people approach to the hand which is counterproductive. Remember that when playing poker you should never be result oriented.
4 Make sure to post your reads/stats on villains and your table image - .convey as much information as you can about the villain(s).
5 Post your thought-train and don't be afraid to be wrong. - Try to post every thought you had that affected your decision so anyone evaluating the hand can see it from your perspective. Taking criticism, even when constructive, can be difficult. This process will test you, but “No pain. No gain.” applies here just as it does in exercise.

To make it more exciting for your hand to be analyzed we would prefer hands to be posted using the new hand analysis tool.

The new tool is easy to use and you can find the instructions here

If you are having issues understanding how to use the PSO Hand Replayer and Odds Calculator, Dave (The Langolier) conducted a live training session to help everyone. Post your hand using the hand replayer and get your hand being analyzed in the hand analysis forum.


Read more: Hand Analysis How To - PokerSchoolOnline Forum http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/for...#ixzz1gbm9sA82

If you are not willing to do any of this other than post bad beats, I am suprised that anyone even looks at these
 
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Thu Dec 15, 2011, 11:10 AM
(#7)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Unfortunately, I have to dis-agree with people here who say this is a BAD PLAY all the time. Can it be a bad play, sure. But it is not necessarily a bad one. Consider...

Hands like AK, ones that will tend to make top/top type hands and/or over pairs, tend to benefit from a LOW Stack to pot ratio going to the flop.

Creating a "target" SPR between 4 to 6 is not really a terrible thing to do (if you can without making a HUGE raise).

HoldemAce486's stack is the effective one here, at $1.87 (93.5BB), and he can BARELY create a desirable SPR with his raise sizing. By jacking it up to 18c to go, he is creating an SPR of around the mid 4's going to the flop if the villain CALLS. This is actually quite good for his sort of hand. Consider...

If he flops, he will now have a pot size he can pretty easily commit to, and that makes him almost entirely un-bluffable.

If he MISSES the flop, he is not hurt greatly by folding off 18c. This is a CASH GAME, not an MTT where chip preservation is a concern afterall.

Add in the fact that HEA486 is seeing a LIMP by the opener, and is ATTACKING that limp. Overall I really like his raise and the sizing of it.

...after that.

Whether or not a jam over this is good depends a lot on what you;e seen from this villain.

You have to have him on an UBER TIGHT ranges though, in order not to like a shove over his monster raise.

Moving in guarentees HEA486 that he will see all 5 cards, will have max chance to spike a pair with ZERO chance at making a "mistake fold", and he is in a race versus all holdings except AA/KK.

Were it an MTT, yes this is weak for HEA486 to do, but in a cash game, where you can each into your pocket and put more money on the table (either today, or after a re-load, whatever), there is really nothing hugely wrong with racing for stacks. HEA486 is crushing ANY un-paired hand, and he is only getting crushed by 2 big pp, so o me, the risk is worth it.

Overall, I think it is a pretty decently played hand, with measured aggression that took into account the effective stack size, and recognition that a limp/raise MIGHT be "strong", but that even versus a ton of "strong" hands her,e AK is in good shape.

Too bad you didn't spike though, but it happens.

Hope it helps.

-JDean
 
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Thu Dec 15, 2011, 11:49 AM
(#8)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,783
(Super-Moderator)
BronzeStar
Looking at these few hands that you've posted, I think I see something with your bets that is definitely a tell on you. Online, the one thing that you can pick up wtih for tells is a player's bet sizing... it's what any better player will concentrate on and look for.

It seems that whenever you have a monster hand, you bet small and want to slow play them. When you have a strong, but not a made hand, you overbet them early.

If you're always doing this, that is something that many players will pick up on and exploit.

Here's how to fix it. Make a standard raise every time. Don't vary them from 2X to 8X, pick a standard one and go with it (ex: 3X + 1BB per limper, or 2.5BB + 1 for each limper, etc). This will help to conceal your hand, as the opp won't know whether you have a big ace, small pkt pair or large pkt pair.

If you did that, it'll make decisions like this much easier. When an opp makes a large 3-bet, you can then easily get off a non-made hand like AK.
You want to be in races mid/late in tourneys, depending on your chip stack. In cash games, you don't want your money into the pot unless you know you're the favorite (which AK will definitely NOT be almost all of the time here, it'll be either behind in a race or dominated).
 
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Thu Dec 15, 2011, 03:59 PM
(#9)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDean View Post
Unfortunately, I have to dis-agree with people here who say this is a BAD PLAY all the time. Can it be a bad play, sure. But it is not necessarily a bad one. Consider...

Hands like AK, ones that will tend to make top/top type hands and/or over pairs, tend to benefit from a LOW Stack to pot ratio going to the flop.

Creating a "target" SPR between 4 to 6 is not really a terrible thing to do (if you can without making a HUGE raise).

HoldemAce486's stack is the effective one here, at $1.87 (93.5BB), and he can BARELY create a desirable SPR with his raise sizing. By jacking it up to 18c to go, he is creating an SPR of around the mid 4's going to the flop if the villain CALLS. This is actually quite good for his sort of hand. Consider...

If he flops, he will now have a pot size he can pretty easily commit to, and that makes him almost entirely un-bluffable.

If he MISSES the flop, he is not hurt greatly by folding off 18c. This is a CASH GAME, not an MTT where chip preservation is a concern afterall.

Add in the fact that HEA486 is seeing a LIMP by the opener, and is ATTACKING that limp. Overall I really like his raise and the sizing of it.

...after that.

Whether or not a jam over this is good depends a lot on what you;e seen from this villain.

You have to have him on an UBER TIGHT ranges though, in order not to like a shove over his monster raise.

Moving in guarentees HEA486 that he will see all 5 cards, will have max chance to spike a pair with ZERO chance at making a "mistake fold", and he is in a race versus all holdings except AA/KK.

Were it an MTT, yes this is weak for HEA486 to do, but in a cash game, where you can each into your pocket and put more money on the table (either today, or after a re-load, whatever), there is really nothing hugely wrong with racing for stacks. HEA486 is crushing ANY un-paired hand, and he is only getting crushed by 2 big pp, so o me, the risk is worth it.

Overall, I think it is a pretty decently played hand, with measured aggression that took into account the effective stack size, and recognition that a limp/raise MIGHT be "strong", but that even versus a ton of "strong" hands her,e AK is in good shape.

Too bad you didn't spike though, but it happens.

Hope it helps.

-JDean

So you're advocating a player having a pre-flop betting style that is SOLELY dependent on hand strength? Because that's what we have here JD. And it's what I'm trying to get him to stop.
 
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Thu Dec 15, 2011, 04:35 PM
(#10)
topthecat's Avatar
Since: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,962
It is not a bad play for ring games, taking stack to pot ratio into account it is a viable one but I do not think that is the point in this instance:

Holdem is trying to build a bankroll, he is trying to play ABC poker to grow that bankroll. Playing this type of strategy is fine if you have the roll to support it, however, if your roll is $8, then you will go bust very quickly!

I do not know what Holdem bought in for but if he was following my advice of short stacking and buying in for 40BB he should have left this table by now. If the cards are running well it is difficult to do but it requires this type of discipline to grow that bankroll.

If Holdem bought in for $2 then he is simply ignoring all the bankroll management advice he has been given. As they say you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink and only Holdem can decide to heed the advice; all we can do is to continue pointing him in the right direction.

Cheers,

TC
 
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Thu Dec 15, 2011, 04:46 PM
(#11)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
Quote:
Originally Posted by topthecat View Post
It is not a bad play for ring games, taking stack to pot ratio into account it is a viable one but I do not think that is the point in this instance:

Holdem is trying to build a bankroll, he is trying to play ABC poker to grow that bankroll. Playing this type of strategy is fine if you have the roll to support it, however, if your roll is $8, then you will go bust very quickly!

I do not know what Holdem bought in for but if he was following my advice of short stacking and buying in for 40BB he should have left this table by now. If the cards are running well it is difficult to do but it requires this type of discipline to grow that bankroll.

If Holdem bought in for $2 then he is simply ignoring all the bankroll management advice he has been given. As they say you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink and only Holdem can decide to heed the advice; all we can do is to continue pointing him in the right direction.

Cheers,

TC

Seeing as this is on table "stentor" which is the same table that he hit the double up with the 109s hand also show in this thread I'm thinking he sat down with $0.80 as he was advised in another section of the forum (badly IMO...meh) and doubled + here. Then gave it all back on this hand.

You're 100% correct IMO about leaving the table and banking the profit after the double up IMO top. Were he sufficiently BR'ed to stay here and try top exploit what may be a weak table that would be one thing. But as short as he is BR wise when you get a doubled up or better stack ,take the money and run.
 
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Thu Dec 15, 2011, 04:59 PM
(#12)
topthecat's Avatar
Since: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,962
Hey Mox,

Sorry I missed the other hand so just got in on the first one.

I am glad Holdem is following some of the advice I can see the benefit of coming to the table with 100 BB but I think for holdem with such a small bankroll, short/mid stacking is the way to go at this point.

I have been away for a while but having looked at some of his posted bad beats and he is making a lot of the elementary mistakes we all have made and I would be concerned if he got stranded in Nit Town; we have all been there. I think though he is on the right path and as Raiser said it is just a matter of time until he gets it right.

What really encourages me is the amount of help, encouragement and support Holdem is getting from the community and the time and effort he is putting in himself; reminds me a lot of when I first came to the site in January

Cheers,

TC
 
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Tue Dec 20, 2011, 05:07 AM
(#13)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moxie Pip View Post
So you're advocating a player having a pre-flop betting style that is SOLELY dependent on hand strength? Because that's what we have here JD. And it's what I'm trying to get him to stop.
No, I'm not advocating that at all.

Your suggestion that I might be is making the assumption that I am saying the OP should not balance his range by doing this with hands that he is likely to FOLD to a 3bet as well.

Obviously, making your raise and bet sizes a function of your hand strength throws off patterns.

In this spot though, as well as similar spots, attacking a LIMPER may well be done with a hand you intend to 4bet jam over any 3bet (like an AK), OR with a hand like J9s that might have reasonable equity versus a LIMP/CALL hand (small and mid pp, or middlin' weak aces often), but that you fully intend to muck to a 3bet.

The question you are putting into the head of your opponent, if you are willing to make a raise like this over a limper with EITHER hand is: "which hand do you have NOW".

Per this post, I am only talking about a single hand, and in this spot this single hand can really be played exactly as the OP played it. If he ONLY plays hands like AK in this way though, then he is going to be throwing off patterns.

But to attack a limper, this sort of line is just fine...
 

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