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raised allin on flop. Early in SNG. Call / fold?

raised allin on flop. Early in SNG. Call / fold? - Thu Dec 15, 2011, 11:29 AM
Tomcrockpot's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 140
This is hand number 4 in a 90 man turbo tournament. First hand I have played, Villain has only played from the blinds and check folded those hands.

What would you do?

PokerStars Game #72205200557: Tournament #484312121, $0.45+$0.05 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level I (10/20) - 2011/12/15 16:18:17 WET [2011/12/15 11:18:17 ET]
Table '484312121 1' 9-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: kkkrotov23 (1350 in chips)
Seat 2: ts2040 (1820 in chips)
Seat 3: vingo23 (1690 in chips)
Seat 4: REXAM3333333 (1470 in chips)
Seat 5: SPmig09 (1310 in chips)
Seat 6: Dani Kata21 (1480 in chips)
Seat 8: kisso7 (1400 in chips)
Seat 9: Tomcrockpot (1500 in chips)
Dani Kata21: posts small blind 10
kisso7: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Tomcrockpot [Ad Qc]
Tomcrockpot: raises 60 to 80
kkkrotov23: folds
ts2040: folds
vingo23: folds
REXAM3333333: raises 180 to 260
SPmig09: folds
Dani Kata21: folds
kisso7: folds
Tomcrockpot: calls 180
*** FLOP *** [Jh Ac 5h]
Tomcrockpot: bets 400
REXAM3333333: raises 810 to 1210 and is all-in
Thu Dec 15, 2011, 11:33 AM
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
As played, Call the all in.

Pre flop call is iffy though, as this looks like a spot where he is setting up a big pot, and AQo is not truly a big pot hand.

The fact it is a turbo event though, and that you are only 4 hands in, means you may be facing someone who had little clue of 3bet value etc. That would mean I MAY go ahead and jam pre to guarentee I see all 5 and get max chance to spike a top pair/good kicker type hand in a race at least SOME of the time. At least some of the time, I am folding this too...

When you do call though, and you spike top pair Q kicker, you got what you were playing for right?

You led out 400, thus putting yourself past a commitment point, so really you should be calling a lot more often here than not.

If this were a standard structure MTT, or a deep stack event, I am MUCH more likely to just muck pre on this depth of money, but being a turbo, sacking off to AK here is going to be a risk you likely have to fade.

The sizing of the villain's 3bet pre makes it un-likely you can check in hopes of controlling the pot, so I have no problem really with your 400 lead on your flop hit, but that action has REALLY stuck you here HARD. So you are going to have to call, and hope he doesn't roll over AK...

Hope it helps.


Last edited by JDean; Thu Dec 15, 2011 at 11:41 AM..
Thu Dec 15, 2011, 12:18 PM
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,858
If it were me and I wanted to leave an out to get off the hand on the flop if the opp shoves, then I'd make a smaller bet on the flop. By betting 400, you've already got 660 of your 1500 that you started the hand with (44%) in the pot.
With that and top pair, 2nd kicker.... I'm calling the all-in.... especially if I had OPR up on my computer and looked at the opp's stats (since it wasn't long enough into the tourney to get a read). The opp here has a history of busting early in tourneys and a large negative ROI, which means that they are probably playing much looser early than they should be.
Thu Dec 15, 2011, 12:58 PM
Tomcrockpot's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 140
Thanks guys, interesting points. I think I do need to work on adjusting my bet sizes post flop, I generally just go for somewhere between 50-100% of the pot, depending on what I think I may be facing and how good my holdings are.. I don't adjust for stack sizes though.. probably a good idea...

Also, yep, I was very unsure.. part of me was saying, you're beat, he hasn't played a hand yet, he has AA or AK.. another part, this is early, you need chips to run deep, there's a good chance he is a donk that had A5s or a low pocket pair or is trying to draw to a flush..

anyway, here's how it played out

Tomcrockpot: calls 810

*** TURN *** [Jh Ac 5h] [4d]

*** RIVER *** [Jh Ac 5h 4d] [3c]

*** SHOW DOWN ***

Tomcrockpot: shows [Ad Qc] (a pair of Aces)

REXAM3333333: shows [Js Ah] (two pair, Aces and Jacks)

REXAM3333333 collected 2970 from pot

*** SUMMARY ***

Total pot 2970 | Rake 0

Board [Jh Ac 5h 4d 3c]

Seat 1: kkkrotov23 folded before Flop (didn't bet)

Seat 2: ts2040 folded before Flop (didn't bet)

Seat 3: vingo23 folded before Flop (didn't bet)

Seat 4: REXAM3333333 showed [Js Ah] and won (2970) with two pair, Aces and Jacks

Seat 5: SPmig09 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)

Seat 6: Dani Kata21 (small blind) folded before Flop

Seat 8: kisso7 (big blind) folded before Flop

Seat 9: Tomcrockpot showed [Ad Qc] and lost with a pair of Aces
Thu Dec 15, 2011, 06:20 PM
TrumpinJoe's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 4,557
As TheLangolier and other instructors have said too many times to count, you should have a plan for every hand you choose to play. Then you size your bets to accomplish the goals of your plan.

While that is a dramatic oversimplfication it points out the objective of betting. They are a means to achieve a goal. Generally the goal is to build a pot ( value bet), set up a bluff (tell a story), or manage a pot (check/call) etc. Although bets may be randomized, they are not random actions but purposeful ones.

Try thinking along these lines and see if it changes your game. It did mine.
Thu Dec 15, 2011, 10:11 PM
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
In a vacuum, fold to the raise pre. If you call, what do you have? Position? No. Initiative? No again. A hand that will miss two-thirds of the time? Yup. By calling, you're ordering a blue-plate special of poker disadvantages. By raising, you're signalling to all the bluffs and out there that you're serious, and you're letting all of the villain's QQ, KK, AA, and AK hands call and crush you absolutely. If the villain will actually 3bet/call with ATs, or is bluffing their donkey off, then shoving isn't horrible on your part. This is a pretty straight fold, though.

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