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Knockout Sit 'n Go's > Regular Sit 'n Go's?

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Knockout Sit 'n Go's > Regular Sit 'n Go's? - Sun Dec 18, 2011, 01:48 PM
(#1)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
Is my reasoning right?

The rake on a $1.50 knockout STT is 15 cents ($1.08 + $0.27 + $0.15), whereas it's 21 cents for a $1.50 regular STT ($1.29 + $0.21), so there's 4.65% more tournament equity to be had in a knockout (assuming you knock out other players with at least average frequency), than there is in a regular.

Therefore, knockouts are better for just about any sit 'n go grinder who has positive expectation to begin with.

Is that right?
 
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Sun Dec 18, 2011, 02:02 PM
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TrustySam's Avatar
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I don't play the knockouts because I like to small-ball whenever I can, and it seems like people in the knockouts are more interested in playing for stacks ... which isn't as ideal an environment for a 'player with calling station tendencies' like me

I guess the equity would depend on how many bounties a person could collect in addition to placing to know for sure? Not sure whether they're mutually compatible goals, or are sometimes in conflict, without having played that many knockouts myself ... I mean like I've played a couple, but not dozens like I have the regular STT's ...

 
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Sun Dec 18, 2011, 02:09 PM
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TrumpinJoe's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 4,557
Prior to Black Friday, KO SnGs were my favorite game. People frequently chase KO bounties with marginal hands so they are softer than other SnG in my experience. The lower juice makes them even more +EV.
 
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Sun Dec 18, 2011, 02:53 PM
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PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
Cool. I'm not crazy. Thanks for the input.

@Sam, I think that if you have a positive ROI, knockout games can't be bad for you. I mean, if you win a knockout, you automatically get two bounties (100% ROI on your bounty entry fee), so I don't think you need to try and knock people out, just try and win like normal and the money should come. Like Joe said, if people are going out of their way to win bounties, they're probably making big errors.

I think that's how it works, anyway.
 
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Sun Dec 18, 2011, 03:59 PM
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Will have to wait until after I get eliminated from the Sunday Storm to post further, since I have that trouble doing two things at once, eh

 
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Sun Dec 18, 2011, 07:41 PM
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TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PanickyPoker View Post
Cool. I'm not crazy. Thanks for the input.

@Sam, I think that if you have a positive ROI, knockout games can't be bad for you. I mean, if you win a knockout, you automatically get two bounties (100% ROI on your bounty entry fee), so I don't think you need to try and knock people out, just try and win like normal and the money should come. Like Joe said, if people are going out of their way to win bounties, they're probably making big errors.

I think that's how it works, anyway.
Are you shopping around for a 'go to' game?

I could see how it might seem like if a person was profitable at one type of game, they ought to be the same at all the others. But don't most people tend to agree that playing for stacks tends to lead to higher variance? Also, the fact that one has to worry about collecting bounties rather than just cashing could potentially alter one's decision-making for individual hands I think. Like take the following hand for example:



Sam's best move?? (no reads)

Absent reads, in a knockout I'm thinking the best move is probably to call, would it be? Solid hand, that's masked, chance to triple up and not have to worry about getting knocked out as the big stack, chance to collect 2 bounties, etc. Whereas in the STT's there's so many loose limpers that's it's actually possible to avoid playing for stacks like 95% of the time at the $1.50 level all the way to the end.

Here's the rest of the hand:



So I wound up coming in first for that game ... not sure how many people I wound up knocking out though - at least one (and same with the person with the 88 - at least one). Whereas, at times when I've been tired, impatient, etc, I've played for stacks, and as you know, the pre-flop favorite doesn't always win:



Like I can't imagine playing that hand any other way in a knockout tournament where the promise of two bounties was at stake - but with an STT, I haven't found it to be profitable to play for stacks so early like that (because it's just as easy to build a stack with much less risk by playing for smaller pots).


Hope this has given you food for thought! Let me know how it goes if you decide to try one or both out!! gl gl!!

Last edited by TrustySam; Sun Dec 18, 2011 at 08:03 PM..
 
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Mon Dec 19, 2011, 12:48 AM
(#7)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrustySam View Post
with an STT, I haven't found it to be profitable to play for stacks so early like that (because it's just as easy to build a stack with much less risk by playing for smaller pots).
Moshman would agree that playing high variance pots early on in an STT is a bad idea, but for different reasons.

I've had the guy's Sit 'n Go Strategy book for months, but I'm just reading it now (great info, horrible editing). Maybe I'll become a pro STT'er. I probably will focus on the $1.50 knockouts for now.

 
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Mon Dec 19, 2011, 01:25 AM
(#8)
Deleted user
I used to play 9man KOs in the past and got sick of them after a bit.
Have moved to 18mans and will be working out my turbo play before adding 27mans again.

I found the KOs payouts where lacking for a player that doesnt chase the bounties.
Something else I look at that isnt a issue for a lot of people is the vpp.
All $1.50 Buyins:

Turbo KO .83
Regular KO .83
Regular 1.16

So that is important to me and the prize pool is more top heavy.
I find it easier to multi Regular 9mans as well,I dont have to factor in the bounties aspect when I make a move. Often a nitty player might go crazy for that bounty and I have invested to much trying to steal the blinds at say 50/100. So for my style I stay away from them.
 
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Mon Dec 19, 2011, 08:47 PM
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TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
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Cookies, that's great info!!

I never would have thought to look at VPP's ... something to definitely keep in mind in the future Also the mutli-tabling aspect ... I've never felt comfortable doing that - not sure I ever will, but if I do wind up growing into it, I guess that's something to keep in mind too - which games are easier to multi-table

I had the same sort of experience with knockout tournaments - like that's what I found with them too ... but that being said, I kind of feel like I may have given knockouts a bad rap based solely on my personal experience.

When I was shopping around for a 'go-to game', I noticed that every single game type (50/50's, knockout, 6max, MTT's, etc) would have at least one or two people who play it as their 'go-to game' who were just killing it. I guess every game has it's own particular 'quirks' or something ... like each game might appeal to different types of people maybe?

I've seen people in the BOTP leaderboard who play knockouts ... I guess if there's more people playing for stacks, that could either appeal to people who are willing to play patient and let others knock each other out? Or possibly also LAGs who are able to collect lots of bounties as well as cash (although maybe less often if they're taking more risks)? Will have to wait for Panicky to share his thoughts on what he's observed

I used to play 6-max STT's, until I realized that the people who were profiting were all playing with VPIP's of like 8% ... I guess they were waiting for the rest of us to knock each other out, which kind of ruined the fun for me ...

Also tried 50/50's but those also seemed to reward super-tight play, as well as people who don't get tilted by having to make a lot of tough laydowns I think?

Hmmm ... also tried those 45 player MTT's which were a disaster for me ... Sammy likes the action as much as the 'droolers' (as moxie likes to call them LOL!!) ... when in Rome ... I couldn't resist

Anyways, GL Panicky ... you play great, so I'm sure you'll do well with whatever game you choose!!
 
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Tue Dec 20, 2011, 07:23 AM
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