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Tough turn decision

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Tough turn decision - Sun Dec 18, 2011, 10:23 PM
(#1)
deadeyz's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 114
The opp in highJack position had been attacking my bb every orbit for 3 rounds and I wasn't getting any hands to defend or re-raise. When the button flats min raise, I decided to call as well to see what comes out on the flop. The original raiser could have anything cos he had been very active and I didn't think the opp on the button has a very strong hand either. If he did he would have re-raised pre-flop.



In hindsight it would have been probably better to lead out on the flop rather than check calling. At the same time I didn't think the opp had made hand on the flop, maybe a pair with a higher club (Ac or Kc) in his hand. When I bet 1/2 pot on turn the opp jams which puts me in an awkward spot. I can still fold leaving me with 36bb stack which is not bad. Once I got involved with a hand like 9c,2c thats best flop I could have hoped for does it makes sense to fold here considering if the opp had a made hand why would he push. I am sure he would have tried to gain more value from his made hand unless he thinks that I'm going to call him with anything. But I had been playing very tight, I had folded my bb for 3 rounds and all the hands I had won without going to showdown.

Should I have lead out on the flop? Once I check call the flop, should I have check called the turn to see what opp does on the river?

Cheers
 
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Sun Dec 18, 2011, 10:46 PM
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JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,814
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preflop: if the opps are playing loose, you have 27% equity against 2 opps with ATC. You only need to call 18% of the pot to stay... so calling IS the correct play here.

flop: basically as good as you could hope for... a flush. I agree with your hindsight thought, as it's best to lead out here. You got lucky that an opp bet (and probably should have raised here if you check first). You want to bet for two things. First, to get value out of your flopped flush, but 2nd, to not risk letting someone with a single higher club draw a card on you for free.

turn: now is why you want to lead on the flop. The opp senses that they can take the pot away from you. The called a raise preflop, then bet the flop, now shove the turn.
What's in their range? flush, yes... pair that could have full house, yes, quad 7's, yes, two high cards with one club, yes, 78 for full house, yes, 2 overcards, yes.
You can beat some, but not many of these.

I think folding here is the best play, but if you led the turn, you may not be in this situation now.

One tip. Just because you folded your BB three times and you won your hands without showdown will not get you a tight label at a table. To get it, you'll need to showdown a couple winning hands, that were strong hands and ahead the entire way thru the hand. You'll also need to only be in about 1-2 hands per orbit (which include the blind hands). If you're seeing a higher % of flops than that... you're not going to get labeled tight.
 
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Sun Dec 18, 2011, 11:24 PM
(#3)
deadeyz's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWK24 View Post
turn: now is why you want to lead on the flop. The opp senses that they can take the pot away from you. The called a raise preflop, then bet the flop, now shove the turn.
What's in their range? flush, yes... pair that could have full house, yes, quad 7's, yes, two high cards with one club, yes, 78 for full house, yes, 2 overcards, yes.
You can beat some, but not many of these.

I think folding here is the best play, but if you led the turn, you may not be in this situation now.

One tip. Just because you folded your BB three times and you won your hands without showdown will not get you a tight label at a table. To get it, you'll need to showdown a couple winning hands, that were strong hands and ahead the entire way thru the hand. You'll also need to only be in about 1-2 hands per orbit (which include the blind hands). If you're seeing a higher % of flops than that... you're not going to get labeled tight.
Thank you JWK24 for your feedback, much appreciated as always. To be honest with you I am not sure why I lead out on the turn after check calling the flop, hence I posted the hand to get your perspective. After check calling the flop, do you think its better to check call the turn and evaluate the situation on the river? For one thing it would probably keep the pot small and if the opp bets big on the river I could release the hand.

I take your point about the opp's range and most of them probably beat us. But would anyone shove on the turn with a super strong made hand when you can get maybe more value on the river.

I didn't think I had tight image just cos I folded by bb 3 times, also I hadn't played a hand in maybe 3-4 orbits cos I had been card dead for few rounds.
 
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Sun Dec 18, 2011, 11:36 PM
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JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
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a strong hand here might shove the turn... because they're worried about another strong hand beatting them. A small full house may not be safe here.

You could try to check/call again... but if I was in the opp's shoes, I'm probably shoving it there as a lead if you check (whether I had a hand or not).

If that's the case, then you SHOULD have a tight image, as long as you didn't showdown any marginal hands earlier in the tourney.
 
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Mon Dec 19, 2011, 01:45 PM
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oriholic's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 751
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You should probably just 3-bet or fold preflop. There's no point in seeing a flop with a hand as bad as 92s with neither the betting initiative nor position. This looks like a nice spot for a squeeze play. Try 3-betting to about 450 and then if you do get called lead most flops. Calling is the worst option here.

On the flop you have to decide whether the raiser is likely to c-bet this sort of board or not. If not, leading is probably best as no one ever believes you flopped a flush. If you think he will c-bet then you can check/raise hoping both of them put in at least some money before folding. Your aim at this point should be to get all the chips in the middle.

On the turn I think you should just lead for about 1/2 pot and (1) not give him a free card with a flush draw (2) get some value before a scary 4th club comes (3) allow him to jam flush draws thinking he can get you to fold. The second 7 is unlikely to have changed anything so if he thought he was ahead before he still should.

Quote:
does it makes sense to fold here considering if the opp had a made hand why would he push. I am sure he would have tried to gain more value from his made hand unless he thinks that I'm going to call him with anything.
Well, with the pot at 2k and your stack at 3k this isn't a huge overbet shove. Also if you do have a hand he'd want to get value before an action-killing 4th club hits the river.

Quote:
I didn't think I had tight image just cos I folded by bb 3 times, also I hadn't played a hand in maybe 3-4 orbits cos I had been card dead for few rounds.
This is way too long to just be folding. Try playing some decent hands like suited connectors, suited gappers, broadways etc. Pretend you have a strong hand and play it like AK, AA etc. You should have a tight image. Use it! If you raise 96s the other players at the table don't know that's your hand. They're putting you on big cards like AK, QQ, etc. They'll be trying to setmine you or maybe bluff you off your missed AK on 596. C-bet any flop you would normally c-bet with those big hands (especially the ones that hit your perceived range) and any flop that actually hits you well.

Last edited by oriholic; Mon Dec 19, 2011 at 01:56 PM..
 

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