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Tournament quality

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Tournament quality - Mon Dec 19, 2011, 11:55 PM
(#1)
cloister88's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 4
I dont usually post on the forum but i need to talk about the subject of quality of play. Any constructive input is very welcome.
After trying to start a bank roll from zero i gave up as the play from freerolls and super cheap games is so bad, any ace is a shove type games. I put some money in and started playing around $5 games and found it was the same. So ive been playing $11 tourneys and found they pretty much play the same as freerolls. To anyone who plays similar buy ins or more, i just want to ask how much i have to pay to get a good quality game? An example from an $11 tourney i just busted out of, utg+1 raises 3x bb with A Q, a player in mid position shoves a resonable sized stack with 33, utg+1 calls and wins. Wtf is that? 33? Endless shoves until im too short stacked to be a threat. I need to be in a game where people know what they are doing but i dont have hundreds to spend to sit at big tables.
I watched negreanu and duhamel play in a 10k buy in on monday night and as expected the quality was excellent for the most part, but i can only dream of playing in a game that big.
I know i can hold my own in a good game, but finding a good game is proving to be difficult on a limited budget.
Thanks in advance for any input.
 
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Tue Dec 20, 2011, 12:08 AM
(#2)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,814
(Super-Moderator)
BronzeStar
Welcome to the forum.

You're going to run into those players in almost any tournament.
I've played everything from freerolls, to micros, to daily casino live tourneys, to WSOPC $350 events.... that type of player is in ALL of them. There are normally less of them as the buy-in goes up, but some will still be there.

To beat them, you need to be patient and wait until you know you'll have the best hand after all 7 cards, then push or call a push. Only go all-in preflop early in these tournaments with a premium hand QQ+.
 
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Tue Dec 20, 2011, 12:24 AM
(#3)
Deleted user
Your going to run into that issue even at the higher limits because the higher limit players will see you are playing above your roll and more likely to fold your blinds to any aggression.

I suggest playing the $11 deepstack if you want to work on postflop play,have had two backers in the past that made me play that and it runs for a long ass time. But it will help you learn to play deepstacks like the Sunday Million and work on your post flop at the same time.

Stay away from Turbos and try the Biggers,they tend to play normal after the first 45 minutes of the game.

Rebuys and turbos bring out the lucksacks and you will be forced to open up shortstacked or go 4-5 way with your AA preflop.

Take a look at the size of the field and the blind structures. The slower the structure the better they play will be usually. Like the $4.50 180 SNGs are very juicy and full of bad players but at the same time they play better than say a $5.50 turbo.
Tourneys that attract huge fields also encourage a gamble aspect.

In the mid stakes I really enjoy playing $33 buyins as the fields are usually under 400.
Micros try the Big $2.20 even though the payout structure is a bit weak on that one.

So short of it is slower blinds will tend to equal better play.
 
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Tue Dec 20, 2011, 07:45 AM
(#4)
joker41673's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,850
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deleted user View Post
Your going to run into that issue even at the higher limits because the higher limit players will see you are playing above your roll and more likely to fold your blinds to any aggression.

I suggest playing the $11 deepstack if you want to work on postflop play,have had two backers in the past that made me play that and it runs for a long ass time. But it will help you learn to play deepstacks like the Sunday Million and work on your post flop at the same time.

Stay away from Turbos and try the Biggers,they tend to play normal after the first 45 minutes of the game.

Rebuys and turbos bring out the lucksacks and you will be forced to open up shortstacked or go 4-5 way with your AA preflop.

Take a look at the size of the field and the blind structures. The slower the structure the better they play will be usually. Like the $4.50 180 SNGs are very juicy and full of bad players but at the same time they play better than say a $5.50 turbo.
Tourneys that attract huge fields also encourage a gamble aspect.

In the mid stakes I really enjoy playing $33 buyins as the fields are usually under 400.
Micros try the Big $2.20 even though the payout structure is a bit weak on that one.

So short of it is slower blinds will tend to equal better play.
+1000

Very thought provoking. Now if only I can get back here to play!!

 
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Tue Dec 20, 2011, 01:49 PM
(#5)
oriholic's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 751
BronzeStar
Bad players are how you win.

Quote:
After trying to start a bank roll from zero i gave up as the play from freerolls and super cheap games is so bad, any ace is a shove type games. I put some money in and started playing around $5 games and found it was the same. So ive been playing $11 tourneys and found they pretty much play the same as freerolls. To anyone who plays similar buy ins or more, i just want to ask how much i have to pay to get a good quality game? An example from an $11 tourney i just busted out of, utg+1 raises 3x bb with A Q, a player in mid position shoves a resonable sized stack with 33, utg+1 calls and wins. Wtf is that? 33? Endless shoves until im too short stacked to be a threat. I need to be in a game where people know what they are doing but i dont have hundreds to spend to sit at big tables.
Then adjust. Either widen your calling range, fully accepting that there is always a decent chance of you getting knocked out; or tighten your playing range since you know that any hand can be for all your chips, and try to wait out all the maniacs. It is absolutely possible to build up a roll from zero. Try gambling more in the freerolls--after all, they're free. Not stupid gambles like taking 26o all in pre, but reasonable ones, where your ATs is ahead of some maniac's range, etc. You can't win a tournament by folding. You gotta get lucky and win some races. And don't wait until you're too short for a double-up to be meaningful.

And you'll want to stay away from turbos for a couple reasons. They play pretty wild and gambly, because you need to to keep up with the blinds. Also, they are FULL of GOOD players/regs. Regulars tend to play turbos because they are fast and therefore they can make a little more hourly playing turbos than normal speeds, even if their ROI is slightly lower and the variance is a little higher. This is more applicable to SnGs, but still.
 
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Tue Dec 20, 2011, 03:00 PM
(#6)
hamburglarid's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 131
SilverStar
The more you play against bad players the more you should win.
 
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Tue Dec 20, 2011, 03:08 PM
(#7)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,604
If you are thinking of building a bankroll have you considered Single table Sig and Go's?

You still get one or two maniacs on a table but you can soon tell who they are and play accordingly.

the sit and os also offer 2/3/5/and 10 table games too

Grade b


I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

13 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Tue Dec 20, 2011, 04:50 PM
(#8)
joy7108's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,286
If you can't beat the shove monkeys and bad players, you certainly won't beat the good players, but the good news is that you are in exactly the right place to improve your game immensely. There are tons of archived training videos, live training, hand analysis, a library full of resources.

There are lots of helpful peeps in the forum who will be glad to help with any problems you might have. If you're willing to do the work, you CAN learn to beat even those wild freerolls.

Welcome to the forum, and good luck!!



ps. You can build a BR from nothing, it's a long grind and very taxing to your patience, but it definitely can be done. I'm one of many here who have proven it.
 
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Tue Dec 27, 2011, 12:00 AM
(#9)
cloister88's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 4
Thanks for the welcome and all the positive input.
I guess the best course of action is to keep on with the sngs, ive been distracted by the comparitively huge payouts of cheap tourneys. The $3.50 50fiftys are usually easy money. I know the only answer is to keep grinding the bankroll up, it was just wishful thinking that playing above the $11 buy in mark would significantly decrease the shove monkey style play and give me a game where my opponents will want to play poker instead of bingo. I'll definitely be looking at other sng, like the $4.50 180 man.
Playing micro tourneys gives me the hope of winning a lot of money (a lot for me) while playing sngs keeps the bankroll breaking even. Im always making use of the training videos and other resources and always trying to improve. One day I'll be sat opposite Negreanu, no day soon though.
 
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i don't believe QQ+ anymore - Thu Dec 29, 2011, 02:17 AM
(#10)
winz savana's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 10
in many tournaments, i found that big pair will lose a big pot and only puts me on tilt...they call with everything and over bet their buttom pair....and hit..always hit


i know luck works both ways..when is the long term?

Last edited by winz savana; Thu Dec 29, 2011 at 11:47 AM..
 
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Mon Jan 02, 2012, 09:54 PM
(#11)
cloister88's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 4
$2.00+$0.20 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level III (20/40) - 2012/01/03 2:02:53 WET [2012/01/02 21:02:53 ET]
Table '554010961 45' 9-max Seat #7 is the button
Seat 1: jozz1 (4342 in chips)
Seat 2: tutugui (4084 in chips)
Seat 3: cloister88 (2772 in chips)
Seat 4: Lucker67rus (5721 in chips)
Seat 5: john-melb (6525 in chips)
Seat 6: 8Chewer (3000 in chips)
Seat 7: RICHDUKE (2797 in chips)
Seat 8: pseudo shark (3000 in chips) out of hand (moved from another table into small blind)
Seat 9: plotniksasha (3716 in chips)
plotniksasha: posts small blind 20
jozz1: posts big blind 40
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to cloister88 [Qd Qh]
tutugui: folds
cloister88: raises 88 to 128
Lucker67rus: folds
john-melb: folds
8Chewer: folds
RICHDUKE: folds
plotniksasha: raises 3588 to 3716 and is all-in
jozz1: folds
cloister88: calls 2644 and is all-in
Uncalled bet (944) returned to plotniksasha
*** FLOP *** [Js Kd 4s]
*** TURN *** [Js Kd 4s] [7h]
*** RIVER *** [Js Kd 4s 7h] [9d]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
plotniksasha: shows [Jc Jd] (three of a kind, Jacks)
cloister88: shows [Qd Qh] (a pair of Queens)
8Chewer said, "nh"
plotniksasha collected 5584 from pot
cloister88 finished the tournament in 2570th place
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 5584 | Rake 0
Board [Js Kd 4s 7h 9d]
Seat 1: jozz1 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 2: tutugui folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: cloister88 showed [Qd Qh] and lost with a pair of Queens
Seat 4: Lucker67rus folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: john-melb folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: 8Chewer folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: RICHDUKE (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: plotniksasha (small blind) showed [Jc Jd] and won (5584) with three of a kind, Jacks

Tilt before and after. 81.6% preflop to win. If i knew how to put videos up here i could give you five bingo suckouts a day. I would never play jacks like that, maybe 3 bet, make the set on the flop then bet for value, but hey, he got what he wanted, a caller for an all or nothing gamble with a weakish pair and a lame suckout.
Winz, what was the buy in of the tournament? For the really cheap micro tourneys its often better to save some cash and work on some sng. The payouts will be poor in comparisson but you wont have to get through 3000 shove monkeys to cash.
 
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Mon Jan 02, 2012, 10:07 PM
(#12)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
Quote:
Originally Posted by cloister88 View Post
For the really cheap micro tourneys its often better to save some cash and work on some sng.
holla

STT's ftw

 
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Mon Jan 02, 2012, 11:43 PM
(#13)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
For the really cheap micro tourneys its often better to save some cash and work on some sng. The payouts will be poor in comparisson but you wont have to get through 3000 shove monkeys to cash.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Hi cloister. IMO you are on the right path here.

Look around and find a SNG game or two that you can beat consistently and use that to steady grow your BR. It WON'T be sexy,it WILL be incremental but each month have a "set-aside" amount of money that you accrued from these SNG's that you use to fund your MTT shots. Stick with proper BR management and learn to grind your "go-to" games and you'll be taking a big step in the right direction.

Always remember to set aside plenty of time for study and self-analysis.

Good luck to you.
 
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freeroll versus high stakes, having played many of 1 and dreamed of playing the other - Tue Jan 03, 2012, 12:06 AM
(#14)
declanmulhal's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 5
BronzeStar
i am unfortunately among the poker masses world wide who dreams of high stake success,lots of money and even better amajor title wpt lapt ept etc , ,,many great players have arrived at the holy grail and i believe with hard work and love for this beautiful game its acheiveable ,however or whatever your buy in i believe adaptationand exploitation are the keys to success the key to success
Quote:
Originally Posted by cloister88 View Post
I dont usually post on the forum but i need to talk about the subject of quality of play. Any constructive input is very welcome.
After trying to start a bank roll from zero i gave up as the play from freerolls and super cheap games is so bad, any ace is a shove type games. I put some money in and started playing around $5 games and found it was the same. So ive been playing $11 tourneys and found they pretty much play the same as freerolls. To anyone who plays similar buy ins or more, i just want to ask how much i have to pay to get a good quality game? An example from an $11 tourney i just busted out of, utg+1 raises 3x bb with A Q, a player in mid position shoves a resonable sized stack with 33, utg+1 calls and wins. Wtf is that? 33? Endless shoves until im too short stacked to be a threat. I need to be in a game where people know what they are doing but i dont have hundreds to spend to sit at big tables.
I watched negreanu and duhamel play in a 10k buy in on monday night and as expected the quality was excellent for the most part, but i can only dream of playing in a game that big.
I know i can hold my own in a good game, but finding a good game is proving to be difficult on a limited budget.
Thanks in advance for any input.
 
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qqvjj - Tue Jan 03, 2012, 12:14 AM
(#15)
declanmulhal's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 5
BronzeStar
as you rightly stated you werewell ahead with qq but about 1 in 8 will lose to underset but remember if you ignore and dont tilt it will be your qq cracking kk another time
 
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hi there - Wed Jan 04, 2012, 03:30 PM
(#16)
comboclint's Avatar
Since: May 2011
Posts: 4
hi cloister88 as for your post
there are only the bigger tournament where you dont
get these idiots
so i would play deepstack tournament like the bigs 22 33 55
are the best but if you cant play that type of cash out lay
you should go for the 11 dollar satellite for the sunday
million which is a great comp and big stack too
with out the fools and i got an ace so i should push all in
wankers
or any deepstack comp you can find they are your best
chance to get away from those guys
cheers
 

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