Home / Community / Forum / Poker Education / Texas Hold'Em Cash Games /

do you like my bluff?

Old
Default
do you like my bluff? - Tue Dec 20, 2011, 09:55 AM
(#1)
rule110's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 147
This ha

Last edited by rule110; Sat Jun 09, 2012 at 01:33 PM..
 
Old
Default
Tue Dec 20, 2011, 11:24 AM
(#2)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Any time you are judging the quality of a bluff, you must know info about the opponent it is tried against. By nature, bluffs are highly exploitative plays, and to be "good" you have to have solid indications they will work.

With that said, right on the face of it I have to say that 5 hands into play at a given table is probably not enough time to really have feel for whether a bluff is good or not. It MIGHT be, if you had watched the table before sitting, or if you have prior notes, but in isolation I'd say it isn't enough.

With that said, there can be times to bluff when you have zero real hope of it working....

Mike Caro is a big proponent of "image" plays such as trying hopeless bluffs early in a session, in hopes you can show it down. This sets the impression in your opponents that you are looser and wilder than you really are.

On line, with the ability for opponents to move tables so readily, I am not sure I agree with his thoughts on image management by bluffing (Mr Caro was refering to live play though). To me, you would be BETTER SERVED in either not attempting an image play at all, or if you bluff early at a table, you make it a bluff that does not LOOK like one; in that case if you do get "caught" on showdown, your image benefits are at least side value (provided you use them effectively).

So...

In this spot, since it is so early in your time at the table, I think you should really NOT be trying wild bluffs like this that often.

If you MUST do so (for your own ego, or whatever), you are better served in telling a CONSISTENT STORY with your betting. Consider...

Your 3bet pre is fine; it says "strength".

Your 1/3rd pot bet on the 2 diamond J hi flop sucks as a bluff; it screams "draw".

Note: in order for an opp to put you on a STRONG hand when you bet 1./3rd pot, he must have info on YOU.
In order for you to believe your opp will think a 1/3rd pot bet is strong, you must have info on HIM.

Your turn bet on an over card Q turn is now large again: but if the opp thought draw on the flop, you bet now says "J at most, maybe"...

If you must bluff, at least give yourself max chance to WIN via your bluff by being consistent with a standard value line.

......................

Seems to me Rule110, this is a little bit of your ego getting in the way of your poker profitability.

Now do not get me wrong, if you WANT to play wild and crazy poker, that is fine. Part of this game is enjoyment, and if your enjoyment comes in getting other people to fold to bluffs, that is all good.

But if you are playing poker for the profit potential, every action you take, EVERY ACTION, should be weighed in terms of what it adds to your bottom line.

You don't add a whole lot to your bottom line by bluffing this early at a table, nor do you do so by playing so many hands early. You also do not mimic a "value line" well enough to really cause villains who may begin to SUSPECT you are bluffing a lot to pay you off when you have true value.

So in the end, this bluff really accomplishes very little for you in the meta game, and it can be quite costly if you gt snapped off.

Hope it helps.

-JDean

Last edited by JDean; Tue Dec 20, 2011 at 11:46 AM..
 
Old
Default
Tue Dec 20, 2011, 11:26 AM
(#3)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,809
(Super-Moderator)
BronzeStar
only 5 hands in, if you have no prior history with the opps, you really haven't established a tight table image, which allows you to set up bluffs. You say that you won 2 of the 5 hands and was in the BB for another (so you were somewhat involved in 3 of 5 hands).... which is NOT a tight image. It's more on the loose/calling station side.

If you don't establish a tight image first, then your bluffs will get called down with worse and worse cards from the opps (you want them to fold, not call).

You also have to take into account that you're playing 2NL..... where most opps will call any bet with anything.

2NL with a loose table image (although it's only 5 hands) is NOT where you want to be bluffing. At this type of table, you need to be playing ABC poker and not bluffing. You can't bluff donks and calling stations very often, which is what these tables are loaded with.

You may or may not have gotten lucky here, but the smart play is to muck the hand preflop. If you keep making plays like this at 2NL, it's a losing cause in the long run.
 
Old
Default
Tue Dec 20, 2011, 01:53 PM
(#4)
oriholic's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 751
BronzeStar
Eh, doesn't look like a great spot to try unless you are trying to set up an image as a hopeless bluffer. You're in okay position, but you're 3-betting an EP raise. If you were on the button it would make more sense to come in, or if you had a solid fish read on the guy that you could really outplay him, but 5 hands in is not enough (unless you've seen something really ridiculous already, which you haven't.)

And you're not even suited!
 
Old
Default
Tue Dec 20, 2011, 07:15 PM
(#5)
CDNHamster's Avatar
Since: Nov 2010
Posts: 63
I think the bluff part has been addressed very nicely HOWEVER this quote scared me even more then the play of the bluff!!! oriholic says and to make a point - And you're not even suited

Holy chit..really?? so you would play that as a bluff suited and that would make it ok? The fact that given the hand would be suited woulds add only less then 3% equity to the hand and even then say you get your flush on the flop and your in a 3 way pot - what are the chances someone has a bigger flush? and on the turn comes the 4th suited card? your dead in the water because anything over a 6 has you beat and chances are you see the flush your betting it like you have the nuts. The only reasdon you would ever be in a pot with a 2 5 or 2 5 suited is for the straight (wheel) or straight flush and THATS ALL. If the board comes 3 4 6 someone with a 5 7 has you beat again. You need to analyze why your in the game with that hand in the first place - to catch those 2 flops mentioned before and possibly the boat 5 5 2 or quads. Anything else hits you fold. I would highly recommend downloading pokerstove and running an equity analysis on what hands a 2 5 suited can beat (its a 38% to 62% favor for any random cards for the villan).
Everyone loves suited connectors - if you would like a good read as to reasons WHY NOT to play suited connectors too strongly buy Annie Duke's latest book - its a great read and has a ton of fantastic information. If you want to get in depth with numbers another great book that can be found on the net is Let there be range by Tri Nguyen when he discusses Combinatorics.

Good luck on the felt
cheers the Hamster
 
Old
Default
Tue Dec 20, 2011, 08:34 PM
(#6)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
I'm currently reading Annie's book (and covering it in a study group), and have perused Tri Ngyuen's stuff...both = VERY good info.

As for the comment and observation, I believe Oriholic was speaking tongue in cheek there...



The old stale joke is: "I played it because it was sooooooooooted!"

One of these days I plan to have a tee shirt made that says: "Suited Poop,is still poop!"

(but with slightly different wording!)
 
Old
Default
your bluff - Wed Dec 21, 2011, 06:55 AM
(#7)
holdemace486's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,760
hi there the bluf was good becuase it worked on that occassion however a really really risky play
reminds me off me, how i played several weeks ago,and well eeeek i was a bad player,out of posistion bluffs really dangerous to do especially with a hand not even worth calling let alone raising,ive lost loads doing that as the good players just trap you and take bluffs like that apart,you was lucky this time but in the long run moves like that will destroy you believe me as a bad player who is improving listen to the pos advice theres some top guys on ere,ive improved 20 percent in the rankings listening to these and i thought i was clever trying to outplay everyone with no incite into how the opponent plays,however i also dont know u or you stats and u could be pro for all i know,and you may be able outplay the table,but either way 5 hands in,good point they didnt have a read on you,bad point you didnt have a read on them,thought i would comment
and my general opinion didnt like it.
 
Old
Default
Wed Dec 21, 2011, 07:16 AM
(#8)
Puciek's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 771
It was horrible, you got lucky.
First learn to walk, then learn to bluff (hint hint, this is NL2).
 
Old
Default
Wed Dec 21, 2011, 07:37 AM
(#9)
rule110's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 147
ok, wow.

Last edited by rule110; Sat Jun 09, 2012 at 01:40 PM..
 
Old
Default
Wed Dec 21, 2011, 08:09 AM
(#10)
Puciek's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 771
Quote:
Originally Posted by rule110 View Post
I mean what would you range this guy at here, and what should his percieved range of me be? Do you think his percieved range of me beats my percieved range of him. Do you think i get a lot of folds here?
Wrong assumption, people at NL2 don't think.
 
Old
Default
Wed Dec 21, 2011, 08:31 AM
(#11)
rule110's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 147
of course

Last edited by rule110; Sat Jun 09, 2012 at 01:41 PM..
 
Old
Default
Wed Dec 21, 2011, 08:36 AM
(#12)
Puciek's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 771
Quote:
Originally Posted by rule110 View Post
of course they think,,,
No they don't, that's why you beat the crap out of them by playing ABC poker that any trained monkey can do. If they were thinking, could a monkey beat them?
 
Old
Default
Wed Dec 21, 2011, 08:42 AM
(#13)
rule110's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 147
just what

Last edited by rule110; Sat Jun 09, 2012 at 01:42 PM..
 
Old
Default
Wed Dec 21, 2011, 08:45 AM
(#14)
Puciek's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 771
Quote:
Originally Posted by rule110 View Post
just what exactly is ABC poker? And how do you feel ABC poker relates to this hand? I mean, I'm playing 52o here.

besides just telling me to play ABC poker isn't very useful in a spot like this, I'm not folding on the flop when he chks to me you know
How is relevant playing 52o to ABC poker ?No idea, honestly. Beside the obvious - don't play it.
 
Old
Default
Wed Dec 21, 2011, 08:49 AM
(#15)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
The kinds of thought processes villains have might surprise you. If you assume that villains will fold because that's what you would do in their position, then you're making a mistake. People don't think the way you want them to think. They think the way they think. Part of your job as a poker player is to identify how players think, hopefully before trying to take their money with unusual plays.

Puciek is right that you can beat the micros without playing bad hands. You really did not need to get involved here. Why put money in on a bluff when you have nothing committed to this pot and can just fold and wait for the next hand? Bluffing isn't something you do for fun or on a whim; it's something you do only when the situation is just right. Nothing about this situation says 'profitable bluff spot' to me.
 
Old
Default
Wed Dec 21, 2011, 08:52 AM
(#16)
rule110's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 147
But I am

Last edited by rule110; Sat Jun 09, 2012 at 01:42 PM..
 
Old
Default
Wed Dec 21, 2011, 08:53 AM
(#17)
Puciek's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 771
Quote:
Originally Posted by rule110 View Post
But I am playing it, I'm bluffing so it doesn't matter what I have anymore. I'm not asking for feedback on whether or not to play 52o, because, as you can plainly see, I do play it.

But this guy doesn't know that yet.
Then i foresee you going bust, dibs on 2-3 weeks if you think that you can play 52o profitably like that in nl2.
Unlike most people posting here, i actually did bit micros, lows and mid stakes so this comes from "been there, done that".
 
Old
Default
Wed Dec 21, 2011, 09:01 AM
(#18)
rule110's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 147
@ Panicky,

Last edited by rule110; Sat Jun 09, 2012 at 01:42 PM..
 
Old
Default
Wed Dec 21, 2011, 09:15 AM
(#19)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
In your OP, you mention that this was your fifth hand with the player, and the only info you mention about him is that he won one hand, and that you have a timing tell on him which I imagine you aren't yet certain actually means anything. There isn't a single stat on my HUD that even starts displaying within my first five hands at a table, because I don't think the sample size is big enough for any of them to mean anything. I think that what you have here are hunches more than they are a solid foundation of info on the villain that you can draw useful inferences from. It's just too early.

If you were to play this 'ABC-style', you would have folded preflop. The reason is, you want to be in the position to have to bluff as seldom as possible. You always want to have the cards to back up your bet, because there's always a chance you'll be called. You lose nothing by folding, aside from a blind and a half every round. What you stand to gain when you play only powerful hands is way more than a blind and a half.

I'll give you that your flop bet might have been profitable (but I can't tell without something like a Fold vs. Flop Bet stat), but after having your 3bet and flop bet called, you're usually just digging a hole by firing again, even with the overcard. This guy smells like a calling station, and if there's one thing calling stations do badly, it's allowing bluffs to be profitable.

No disrespect intended, btw. Just saying what's on my mind. I really hope you get better through using this forum, and I just think that folding this particular hand would help with that.
 
Old
Default
Wed Dec 21, 2011, 09:23 AM
(#20)
Maj. D Zastr's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 120
Well... with that pic, he couldn't really play it any other way, could he?

It's got artistic value, I like it... only because of the pic though.
 

Getting PokerStars is easy: download and install the PokerStars game software, create your free player account, and validate your email address. Clicking on the download poker button will lead to the installation of compatible poker software on your PC of 51.7 MB, which will enable you to register and play poker on the PokerStars platform. To uninstall PokerStars use the Windows uninstaller: click Start > Control Panel and then select Add or Remove programs > Select PokerStars and click Uninstall or Remove.

Copyright (c) PokerSchoolOnline.com. All rights reserved, Rational Group, Douglas Bay Complex, King Edward Road, Onchan, Isle of Man, IM3 1DZ. You can email us on support@pokerschoolonline.com