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Rebuys

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Rebuys - Tue Dec 20, 2011, 07:04 PM
(#1)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
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What is a good guide like for bankroll management for a rebuy torniment?

Ta

Grade b


I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

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Tue Dec 20, 2011, 07:07 PM
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JWK24's Avatar
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It'll depend on the type of tourney. Some are limited number of rebuys, some are unlimited.

make sure you're ready to rebuy/add-on, probably 5-6 times. If doing that won't fit into good bankroll guidelines, then you should look at a smaller tourney.

When you play these, you really MUST take the add-on at the end of the rebuy period.
 
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Tue Dec 20, 2011, 07:19 PM
(#3)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,604
I was thinking unlimited JWK

So say i want to enter a 1.10 Re-buy (unlited rebuys 1 add on)

I have my intial buy in $1.10

i allow 6 rebuys $6.00

i allow 1 addon $1.00

Total cost $8.10

so if i follow torniment BRM i am looking at 100 buys ins so

$810 to be playing in a 1.10 rebuy?

Is this correct?

Grade b


I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

13 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Tue Dec 20, 2011, 07:24 PM
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JWK24's Avatar
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I think that's a real good estimation. It'll depend on the exact tourney, but you're in the ball park.
 
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Wed Dec 21, 2011, 06:31 AM
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Briany84's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 251
I hear what you guys are saying but let me interject with my little piece, i understand you are talking about bankroll management in rebuy tourneys.

I jus wanted to say that i find in most rebuy tourneys, a lot of them to be honest, the add on is all i really need..

There is so many people spewing chips in the early stages of these tourneys that if you just sit tight and play your solid hands you will double up, and more than likely double up again b4 the rebuy period id over, i find that there is never a real rush to rebuy on my part, just sit tight and YOU WILL catch some1
 
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Wed Dec 21, 2011, 07:01 AM
(#6)
Pentire's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 117
Briany,

Immediately rebuying is the most +ev in a rebuy tourney. You always want to have the most chips possible in front of you to capitalise on your hands. An extreme example to illustrate:

1) Before the tourney you do not rebuy. The rest of the table does rebuy. You have 1500 chips, all others have 3000.

First hand, (blinds 10/20) you are on the button. You get dealt aces, the cutoff open raises to 60, you reraise to 180, he reshoves all in and you call. He shows KK and the board improves neither hand. You now have 3000 chips and are now on a par with the rest of the table.

2) Before the tourney you do rebuy. The rest of the table also rebuys. You all have 3000 chips

First hand, (blinds 10/20) you are on the button. You get dealt aces, the cutoff open raises to 60, you reraise to 180, he reshoves all in and you call. He shows KK and the board improves neither hand. You now have 6000 chips and are now chip leader at the table with double what everyone else has. You can now extract max value out of everyone else's hands for a while as you have them all covered.

Although it can be bad for your ROI, constant rebuying until you have a fat stack and taking the add-on (if you're the overall chip leader and it is only adding about 5% then maybe don't bother) are the most +ev ways to play these if you are looking to FT or win them.
 
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Wed Dec 21, 2011, 10:25 AM
(#7)
Grade b's Avatar
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Posts: 3,604
Quote:
Originally Posted by Briany84 View Post
I hear what you guys are saying but let me interject with my little piece, i understand you are talking about bankroll management in rebuy tourneys.

I jus wanted to say that i find in most rebuy tourneys, a lot of them to be honest, the add on is all i really need..

There is so many people spewing chips in the early stages of these tourneys that if you just sit tight and play your solid hands you will double up, and more than likely double up again b4 the rebuy period id over, i find that there is never a real rush to rebuy on my part, just sit tight and YOU WILL catch some1
Again this is part of my question, How many rebuys have you played and in what % do you just take the add on. Would you rebuy 4 or 5 times if you had to.

I was guessing i would need to factor in an average amount but hopefully based on some realistic figures to set a BRM goal. I think at the monent unless Stars is offering 10C rebuys i will leave them off my "poker Diet" untill 2013

Grade b


I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

13 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Wed Dec 21, 2011, 10:31 AM
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Puciek's Avatar
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Posts: 771
Why would you limit amount of rebuys for tournament...? Only reason not to rebuy is when you are overmatched/playing bad.

And it's not as simple (buyin*rebuy+addon)*usual_brm, as they have much much much bigger swings - also because of payout structure vs entrants.
 
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Wed Dec 21, 2011, 01:03 PM
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joy7108's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,286
I've been playing these occasionally, and have nowhere near an $800 BR. I'm usually pretty conservative with BR managment, guess this is the exception.

When I do play these, I always rebuy before it starts so I have the maximum amount of chips possible. I agree with Pentire, if you do get a premium hand you want to realize as many chips as possible. I rarely need to rebuy again, but if I do I rebuy double as well, and I always take the addon regardless of how many chips I have (you can never have too many chips).

The strategy of a lot of players in these seems to be shove any ace, any face, any two broadway, and any pair no matter how small, as well as any suited connectors and 1-2 gappers, especially soooted. They're looking for that quick double-up, but when they get it, they continue to play the same and usually lose the chips as fast as they got them. I've done fairly well in these by playing ABC poker, especially until the rebuy period ends. As you get closer to the final table the players that are left are usually the more disciplined players, so you need to adjust accordingly.

IMO these are definitely beatable, and pay out pretty well if you can get to the top 15-20 or so.

 
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Wed Dec 21, 2011, 02:52 PM
(#10)
Grade b's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Puciek View Post
Why would you limit amount of rebuys for tournament...? Only reason not to rebuy is when you are overmatched/playing bad.

And it's not as simple (buyin*rebuy+addon)*usual_brm, as they have much much much bigger swings - also because of payout structure vs entrants.

So you would recommend more that 100 buy-ins (on guestermate of cost of average tournie)?
 
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Wed Dec 21, 2011, 02:54 PM
(#11)
Grade b's Avatar
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Posts: 3,604
Hi Joy,

yes i read your post of your deep run yesterday well done. You had said in the post about the good pay out for $1 but i guess you had meant $3?

Do you play the turbos or regular speed?

Ta
Grade b


I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

13 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Wed Dec 21, 2011, 04:43 PM
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TrustySam's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grade b View Post

Do you play the turbos or regular speed?
This is an interesting topic grade b ... glad you started it! I was lurking yesterday, but my thoughts are kind of mish-mash on the subject, and based on experiences of like just 2 or 3 tourneys (lol), so I thought I'd wait to see what developed

I noticed that too about the turbos versus regular ... and/or the rebuy period length, starting/rebuy/add-on chip-stack sizes. Like maybe that's a factor?

There was that 1FPP 3x-turbo rebuy satellite for the Sunday Million, and blinds at one point were 8,000, and people were still double-rebuying for 6000 because of the 90 minute rebuy period. And the average stack was like maybe 80,000 or something? I guess the FPP's didn't really matter to people ... but at the same time, it kind of felt like maybe their chances might have been better if they'd just started fresh with a new tourney where the blinds were lower (since those satellites were running every hour)?

And in contrast - I've been playing this $2.20 1R1A regular speed tourney, with a 60 minute registration and rebuy period. And if one registers at the last minute and immediately gets the rebuy and add-on, with blinds only at 100, their stack of 12,000 gives them 120bb's, and it's generally about average because only about half the field gets rebuys? With a tourney like that, where only half the field is buying rebuys, maybe it's not +EV to be buying in for $6 if the average buyin of the field is only $5? Its close though - it's kind of felt like half the field is registering early like briany, and see it as a way to save money, in that double-ups are possible without having to rebuy (and if they get eliminated early they don't rebuy); and then it's kind of felt like the other half of the field see it as a way to save time, in that double-ups are possible without having to play the first hour?

Just some observations ... based on my rebuy tourney experience of like 3 Interested to hear more of what other people have found with their experiences!

Sam
 
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Wed Dec 21, 2011, 04:54 PM
(#13)
TrustySam's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pentire View Post
1) Before the tourney you do not rebuy. The rest of the table does rebuy. You have 1500 chips, all others have 3000.

2) Before the tourney you do rebuy. The rest of the table also rebuys. You all have 3000 chips
Oh that's an interesting thought Pentire It's something I've never stopped to notice - how many people are actually rebuying up front ... I guess because I usually do too

It does seem like some tourneys there's more people double-rebuying, and also more people rebuying if they bust out. Not sure if it's the turbos that attract more rebuys or something? Haven't noticed for sure ...

I've seen people sometimes who have big stacks who wind up losing them, who are then desperate to get them back at any cost ...

Also I've seen people who from the get-go who want to double up fast, so they just keep shoving with any two until they've like quadrupled up, and then they stop.

Just some random observations ...

Sam
 
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Wed Dec 21, 2011, 04:56 PM
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I played a lot of these on FT in the pre Black Friday days, in fact that was virtually all I played.

Considering that at the time I was a complete donk I did well on them and found that if you took the rebuy at outset and the addon you could cash on a regular basis.

I played a lot of the 10th anniversary rebuys and got 4 tickets out of them, all but one by single rebuys and the add-on.

So to answer your original question I would suggest you work your bankroll figures based on a buy-in of 3x the basic figure. (I must be honest and say that when I am playing these I tend to ignore my bankroll management figures and treat them as a "special").

 
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Wed Dec 21, 2011, 04:58 PM
(#15)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,604
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrustySam View Post



And in contrast - I've been playing this $2.20 1R1A regular speed tourney, with a 60 minute registration and rebuy period. And if one registers at the last minute and immediately gets the rebuy and add-on, with blinds only at 100, their stack of 12,000 gives them 120bb's, and it's generally about average because only about half the field gets rebuys? With a tourney like that, where only half the field is buying rebuys, maybe it's not +EV to be buying in for $6 if the average buyin of the field is only $5? Its close though - it's kind of felt like half the field is registering early like briany, and see it as a way to save money, in that double-ups are possible without having to rebuy (and if they get eliminated early they don't rebuy); and then it's kind of felt like the other half of the field see it as a way to save time, in that double-ups are possible without having to play the first hour?



Sam
in a training two weeks ago by TheLangolier this topic of the 1r1a and we were 50 / 50 if we take the r right at start or gamble and if we get busted then rebuy. The extra chips should help compensate for less money payed by the rest of the field. but have to say i don't know?

maybe a re-buy specialist can comment for us.

grade b


I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

13 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Wed Dec 21, 2011, 05:00 PM
(#16)
TrustySam's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grade b View Post
in a training two weeks ago by TheLangolier this topic of the 1r1a and we were 50 / 50 if we take the r right at start or gamble and if we get busted then rebuy. The extra chips should help compensate for less money payed by the rest of the field. but have to say i don't know?

maybe a re-buy specialist can comment for us.

grade b
Oh ... a 3rd option! Intereresting!!

Yes, will be interesting to hear peoples' thoughts!!
 
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Wed Dec 21, 2011, 05:03 PM
(#17)
TrustySam's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boobylops View Post

I played a lot of the 10th anniversary rebuys and got 4 tickets out of them, all but one by single rebuys and the add-on.
wow, congrats!!

I played one of those, and had everybody at my table labelled as a 'maniac' with a red circle, except for one person ... every hand was like a shove for 90 minutes straight. My head felt like it was experiencing some sort of nuclear meltdown LOL
 
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Wed Dec 21, 2011, 05:09 PM
(#18)
Sandtrap777's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,310
Just my 2 cents

If it's unlimited re-buys, I use just my buy in and if I lose it, than I will double re-buy and that will be it. 15 minutes after the tournament as started, even if you bought a re-buy at the start, you will have less chips than the average stack. (especially at very low stakes) and then you have to open up. I personally think that these unlimited re-buy tournament are for aggressive players (bingo players). Your range of starting hands needs to be twice as big. As the re-buy period gets close to the end, it gets very wild and any 2 cards will do...lol

I personally prefer the limited buy-in's, the 2R/1A. This game I will buy the extra 2 re-buy's at the beginning, which will put me in the top 10% of the leaderboard and I will play my normal game. By the time you reach the end of re-buy period, you will be in the top 25% just by playing a normal game (just a bit of luck...lol). Therefore I play this as a 4x the buy-in.

The other re-buy (1R/1A) has to be seen as a double the stake as most players will take the re-buy at the beginning. Therefore if you play this type of re-buy, it will cost you 3x the buy-in.

I always look at the average stack, as I want to make sure, I'm always above it


Last edited by Sandtrap777; Wed Dec 21, 2011 at 05:14 PM..
 
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Wed Dec 21, 2011, 06:28 PM
(#19)
TrumpinJoe's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 4,557
I expect he means a reasonable number of buy-ins can be invested. Don't make so many rebuys you have to win the whole shebang just to break even. But as long as you feel you are +TEV by staying in go for it.
 
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Thu Dec 22, 2011, 12:32 AM
(#20)
TrustySam's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandtrap777 View Post
which will put me in the top 10% of the leaderboard and I will play my normal game. By the time you reach the end of re-buy period, you will be in the top 25% just by playing a normal game (just a bit of luck...lol).
Oh ... I guess that's 5 options then LOL!

The fourth would be to get the double-rebuy and start right at the beginning ... and then if you start at the top, then (hopefully, luck willing) you'll be able to stay at the top? Whereas if you rebuy (or double rebuy) at the end, you're merely middle of the pack?

(And then the 5th option would be to register late and not rebuy?)

I'll have to give double-rebuying right at the beginning a shot and see how that goes (once I'm out of my downswing).

Also, yeah, maybe that's important to start thinking of the rebuys as part of the buy-in. I'm sure I'm not the only one who does this, but even though one one level I'm aware that a $2.20 tourney plus a rebuy plus an add-on equals $6, I'm obviously not thinking of it as a $6 tourney, otherwise I'd never be playing a tourney with a $6 buy-in (except I just did ) I'll bet it's pretty common to make the mistake of thinking of $2.20 rebuy tourneys as $2.20 tourneys and not $6 tourneys?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrumpinJoe View Post
Don't make so many rebuys you have to win the whole shebang just to break even.



PS Anybody else have stats that haven't been updated in the past 24 hrs on pokerprolabs?

Last edited by TrustySam; Thu Dec 22, 2011 at 12:43 AM..
 

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