Home / Community / Forum / Poker Education / Texas Hold'Em Tournament Section (MTTs & STTs) /

limping rockets-UTG big11

Old
Default
limping rockets-UTG big11 - Wed Dec 21, 2011, 08:31 PM
(#1)
marvinsytan's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 6,453
Sorry, this hand was deleted by its owner

I have 13 BB's

I have the best hand.

lots of aggressive players because I always seeing someone raise I just thought if I limp someone might try to steal my limp or try to outplay me by min raising or something.

but that's the problem no one raised and my opp is the SB and BB.

Flop: Worst flop not only it has a straight draw. It also paired the board. The SB and BB can easily have that. The only advantage I got is position.

SB bets 1530 in a 2040pot. This is something. I put myself in a bad situation. Calling here is suicide. So It's a push of fold. I got 12BB's left I got rockets then so be it.

Lesson Learned. When you have the best hand. Just raise don't put yourself in a bad situation.Just let them 3bet you. if they didn't call or 3bet you.You won the blinds risk free because you don't want the blinds crack your rockets which is very often due to plays like this.

I might get busted by the worst hand in this play and we don't want to get busted a random 6x. You might just want to kill yourself if that happened. Your best hand crack by worst random 6x hand.
 
Old
Default
Wed Dec 21, 2011, 08:52 PM
(#2)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
First off, don't be results-oriented. You had a reason to limp with aces. You said that the table was aggressive and someone was likely to raise. Had there been a raise, it's possible you could have doubled, tripled, or quadrupled up here in which case you likely would have been praising yourself for being so smart. Just because it didn't work out doesn't mean it wasn't a good play. If you had a good reason to do what you did, defend it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by marvinsytan View Post
Flop: Worst flop not only it has a straight draw. It also paired the board. The SB and BB can easily have that. The only advantage I got is position.

SB bets 1530 in a 2040pot. This is something. I put myself in a bad situation. Calling here is suicide. So It's a push of fold. I got 12BB's left I got rockets then so be it.
I actually disagree with these statements. A paired board is beautiful for you. There are two cards that would sink you, but those cards are not going to be in either villain's range very often. When the villain bets out, he is usually semibluffing high cards or value betting a one pair hand. If you raise, you'll fold out most of his range that isn't trips or better. By calling, you might get another bluff on the turn, and if he was semibluffing a hand like KJo and hits a K or J on the turn, you'll probably get his whole stack.

I think you should call the flop.
 
Old
Default
Wed Dec 21, 2011, 09:26 PM
(#3)
marvinsytan's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 6,453
PanickyPoker,

Your absolutely correct, If this was a tight table I will definitely no doubt in my mind raised the normal raise UTG with my rockets.

for the play postflop

I think his range is random here because he'll just need to complete his blind to be able to play.He might be playing any 2 here even 72o and get lucky. He got stacks so 250 to see the flop. Definitely will not fold any 2 here.

but your also be right that I can get all of his stacks if I just call then if he hit his TP.

but what if he is on draw and he just paid 1500 to complete his draw that's bad for my rockets and will definitely kick myself if I lose to 58,45, 89,T9,34 only to hit his draw

but the possibility of him hit his hand on the turn is also a possible so I think with 12 BB's I don't want him to outdraw me

I don't want to make 2 mistakes in one hand.

yes, I know even If I have reason to limp my rockets because I have the reason to play that way I still think aggressive table or tight table you need to put a raise to your rockets just to get value and just like this you don't want to be fighting with your life with the SB and BB without no information on what their hands are.

second, because I don't have any information on what the SB have, might as well win the pot risk free.It's better to win it risk free rather than slow playing then get outdrawn that's the worst you can get but winning is surviving and surviving is you should never put yourself at risk at all times possible.

But this is a good analysis, I learned something from you.
 
Old
Default
Wed Dec 21, 2011, 09:38 PM
(#4)
Deleted user
Dont limp AA with that stack size,its to easy to read for most players.

If you havent limped in early position then this play will stick out like a sore thumb.
Especially if you have nitty stats,I can fold most of my range to that play and a lot of aggro players know that people are trying to trap them.

I used to do this play and found I would end up with half the table just calling for two reasons.
They know I got rockets and hope to hit a set or they like to call.
It really only works at the micros to be honest,the Biggers tend to attract better players.

Depending on your reads you could have done a few things.

Lets say you open 2.3xbb mostly,then I would open that same amount hoping that people see it as a steal or small pair that I want to take a chance with. Of course dynamics and image are always concerns.
Some tourneys I establish 4xbb utg so that I can build a pot against weaker players when the blinds move up.

You could minraise depending how people see your image at the table and how they react to a minbet.Honestly think the Big blind will call with a pretty wide range if you do this because of his stack.I dont know how he plays though,so I cant establish any plays based on reads.

Lot of players will laugh when they see a nitty player limp utg at these levels and with your stack.
Sometimes you can just shove and get a looser call,it really all depends on table image,reads and
point of the tourney.
 
Old
Default
Wed Dec 21, 2011, 11:26 PM
(#5)
marvinsytan's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 6,453
I seecookies I see money in your analysis

good one

very helpful from your point of view
 
Old
Default
Thu Dec 22, 2011, 01:05 AM
(#6)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by marvinsytan View Post
I have 13 BB's

I have the best hand.

lots of aggressive players because I always seeing someone raise I just thought if I limp someone might try to steal my limp or try to outplay me by min raising or something.
You have to consider that ANY UTG raise, especially one made by a 13BB stack, is going to appear uber-strong. This is true because ANY 3bet over a raise by your stack, that then sees you 4bet shoving, would probably all but FORCE the aggro 3bettor to call; that means only a TIGHT range should be raising your short stack UTG open raise (if you HAD open raised that is).

You do have one of the "requirements" for trying to play your AA in this tricky fashion: an aggressive table.

Before you rush out and try that type of play though, you really probably also want to know that your table does not CALL too much.

There are a couple of 30BB+ stacks outside of the blinds who could have limped along to try out-flopping you. The presence of those stacks sizes man you probably do not want to try the deceptive play of limping your AA unless they ALL have pretty tight limp ranges (probably under 20% certainly, and maybe even under 15%/16%).

If you have the info to say that the bigger stacks will not limp along to try out playing you, as WELL as the info about high aggression, Then I'd say your AA limp is ok as a risk/reward try.

If I know the table is aggro, then anyone limping along with you might be worried about someone in later position trying to ISO on you, so that alone will probably cut down on limp-alongs, but did you know that when you limped?

If not, a standard raise might have been better than to just having the aggro read on the table dynamic to justify your added risk.



Quote:
Originally Posted by marvinsytan View Post

but that's the problem no one raised and my opp is the SB and BB.
The chance of this happening can be guessed at based upon your limp percentage, as well as your overall table image.

This is a situation where you will find that different images have different "situational equity" value. Consider...

If you had ALWAYS raised to enter, then a limp looks very suspicious.
You can probably find only the BB coming along a good bit of the time then, and MAYBE only the SB and BB.

If you had limped frequently, then the chance someone raises you is higher.

So there are things you can look at that might tell you if this will happen.

Realistically though, only having the SB and BB along is not awful for you; AA still plays pretty well in a 3way pot, and the 3rd player coming along increases your chance to catch a double up. It does increase your risk of loss too, but not enough to really kick yourself over for limping. If 6 people had limped along, THAT would be a different story...

Quote:
Originally Posted by marvinsytan View Post
Flop: Worst flop not only it has a straight draw. It also paired the board. The SB and BB can easily have that. The only advantage I got is position.
This flop is not THAT terrible for you.

Sure, anyone who flopped a straight draw here is no on better equity than they'd have had if you got them to commit all in pre flop, and a 6 crushes you, but look at it like this:

No hand that flopped a straight draw here would likely call a pre flop jam by you, whereas they now MIGHT call as a 35% dog.

So there are some hands that might call NOW that probably would not have pre flop, and only hands that are 77 or contain a 6 crush you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by marvinsytan View Post
SB bets 1530 in a 2040pot. This is something. I put myself in a bad situation. Calling here is suicide. So It's a push of fold. I got 12BB's left I got rockets then so be it.
This is a good push.

The pot has grown to the point it represents a good chip up for you.

It isn't really likely a player in the blind would donk lead at you with a 6 in his hand (at least not for 1500 into a 2000 pot).

If he did, as you say, so be it.

It was a good push.

Quote:
Originally Posted by marvinsytan View Post
Lesson Learned. When you have the best hand. Just raise don't put yourself in a bad situation.Just let them 3bet you. if they didn't call or 3bet you.You won the blinds risk free because you don't want the blinds crack your rockets which is very often due to plays like this.

I might get busted by the worst hand in this play and we don't want to get busted a random 6x. You might just want to kill yourself if that happened. Your best hand crack by worst random 6x hand.
The lesson you should learn here is that sometimes the risk of a tricky play is worthwhile, but to make the risk worthwhile you really need to process more than just 1 info bit (like "the table is aggro"). You had PART of the info you;d like to have to try this tricky play, but you didn't have any "back up" info to help support it really.

In this spot, lacking that 2nd piece of info that says I may be ok to try a limp without hugely increasing my risk, I too would prefer a raise. But at least you ar eon the right track trying to look at DIFFERENT ways to play hands to generate extra value by using your table observations.

Good job.

Hop it helps.

-JDean

Last edited by JDean; Thu Dec 22, 2011 at 01:26 AM..
 
Old
Default
Thu Dec 22, 2011, 01:40 AM
(#7)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
I'm not sure I agree with this being a good raise, JDean. Hero risks two pot-sized bets to win one, which is a massive chip-up, so I do think that raising is +EV. However, by raising, the hero is chasing away a ton of value. Perhaps one-pair hands, including pairs as low as 22, will call, but that's a big perhaps, and they will very frequently fold. Just about everything in the villain's range has a reason to bet most turns, and so I think we retain massive value by just calling the flop. They won't always bet the turn, but even if they don't, they might call a bet then. A raise now is bluffing with what is almost certainly the best hand.

The really key piece of info in my mind is that there are very few hands the villain may be holding that the turn can possibly improve to beat us. Sure, there are straights and sets, but those are so unlikely that it's totally worth losing our stack because of all the times we'll get the villain's because he bluffs it off and value bets it off. We beat most of his value bets.
 
Old
Default
Thu Dec 22, 2011, 02:49 AM
(#8)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by PanickyPoker View Post
I'm not sure I agree with this being a good raise, JDean. Hero risks two pot-sized bets to win one, which is a massive chip-up, so I do think that raising is +EV. However, by raising, the hero is chasing away a ton of value. Perhaps one-pair hands, including pairs as low as 22, will call, but that's a big perhaps, and they will very frequently fold. Just about everything in the villain's range has a reason to bet most turns, and so I think we retain massive value by just calling the flop. They won't always bet the turn, but even if they don't, they might call a bet then. A raise now is bluffing with what is almost certainly the best hand.

The really key piece of info in my mind is that there are very few hands the villain may be holding that the turn can possibly improve to beat us. Sure, there are straights and sets, but those are so unlikely that it's totally worth losing our stack because of all the times we'll get the villain's because he bluffs it off and value bets it off. We beat most of his value bets.
I like the Jam because there ARE some sticky decision cards which could come for the Hero.

As Hero is already 33% invested (roughly) if he flats, more often than not he should be willing to put all the rest of his stack in if the Villain bets anyway, but it may be a tough spot to do so if the villain launches first.

Also, you have to consider that while there ARE pp that will fold to a jam here in most cases, there are also possible pp that might CALL that jam too. Those pp might see a card that dries up their willingness to call on the turn, and the fact the Villain is currently pretty deeply invested might mean he is less likely to fire a 2nd bluff bullet that we'd WANT to see to get value.

So all in all, taking down a 40%+ chip up NOW, with a small chance that the villain calls with less to give the full value, is better than risking a tough decision on the turn, or a card coming that might deny that value anyway.

Last edited by JDean; Thu Dec 22, 2011 at 03:27 AM..
 
Old
Default
Thu Dec 22, 2011, 03:40 AM
(#9)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
I think you're right about possibly drying up action on the turn if, as an example, a third ace or a king comes. I think balancing that with the risk of scaring away hands that might value bet the turn makes this a difficult spot because really, raising here carries the exact same risk, since there's no action drier than a fold. I really don't think there's a single scare card in the deck for us, since if a straight completes, that improves a miniscule amount of the villain's range to beat us, so I'm getting it in regardless. On balance, calling is better than shoving imo.
 
Old
Default
Thu Dec 22, 2011, 04:38 AM
(#10)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Sure, once we are 1/3rd in, we should not live in fear of cards that beat us. but those cards COULD COME, and we'd still have to jam.

If the donk leading villain were deeper here than he is, I'd tend to agree with your assessment Panicky, a flat really does not hurt us much, and it MAY get a turn bluff that we are not scared of...

...but if a turn bluff will COMMIT HIM TOO, I do not see a lot of those being made either on action killer cards, OR on even hands like 88/99/TT that might call NOW.

You gotta remember: Marvin's shove was not out-sized...

It laid a price of around 4800 to win 9900 to a Villain who had put 25% of his chips in.

In this situation, I just cannot agree.

The Villain here was teetering on the cusp of a committment point really with his donk lead, and if he was likely to put anything more into the pot with his hand the best chance we had to get those chips was NOW.

Last edited by JDean; Thu Dec 22, 2011 at 04:41 AM..
 
Old
Default
Thu Dec 22, 2011, 05:04 AM
(#11)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
Very interesting discussion, I think. I hope a few others chime in. Poor Marvin's going to have so much to read.
 
Old
Default
Thu Dec 22, 2011, 06:53 AM
(#12)
rule110's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 147
you are utg(13.67bb) w/ AA @ 250/500, 60 ante.

folding, or thinking of folding, AA when you started the hand w/ only 13.67bb is an unhappy result. I feel you must be raising here with the intention to somehow get the money in.

I think i like shoving here preflop. winning the 1290 already in the pot represents increasing your stack by almost 19%---even if everyone folds this is still a good result. And shoving utg leaves you 8 chances to be called when you hold AA---the best hand.

Last edited by rule110; Thu Dec 22, 2011 at 06:55 AM..
 
Old
Default
Thu Dec 22, 2011, 11:37 AM
(#13)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,857
(Super-Moderator)
BronzeStar
I don't like limping from UTG with strong hands and here's why. If noone else raises, then the BB will be able to see the flop for free. I've limped like this in the past and been beat way, way too many times by a BB special hitting 2 random pair. Due to this, I make my std raise. It'll be the same raise with AA or 22 or high suited connectors, etc. While making a std raise could get everyone to drop, it does help to conceal your hand, since it's your standard opener.
I've also been on the other end of this, where I was in the BB and got the BINGO flop of 2 pair. When I win one of those hands, I just say to myself... the opp really played this bad due to not raising preflop to make my junk hand preflop, that turned into a great hand, fold.

On the flop, I actually like the shove here. The opp could have a 6 for a set, since they completed from the SB, but if they're trying to make a play at the pot since everyone else acted weak, the shove can then take the pot right then. If the opp calls, then you're behind a 6 or 77 and that's it, and I'd be willing to take that chance here.
 
Old
Default
Thu Dec 22, 2011, 03:57 PM
(#14)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by rule110 View Post
you are utg(13.67bb) w/ AA @ 250/500, 60 ante.

folding, or thinking of folding, AA when you started the hand w/ only 13.67bb is an unhappy result. I feel you must be raising here with the intention to somehow get the money in.

I think i like shoving here preflop. winning the 1290 already in the pot represents increasing your stack by almost 19%---even if everyone folds this is still a good result. And shoving utg leaves you 8 chances to be called when you hold AA---the best hand.
This is definately an option too, just open shoving right from jump street.

Doing that allows opp's to possibly make a mistake in thinking you have a hand you really do NOT want a call with (like maybe AK or a mid pp).

And as Rule 110 states, it IS a pretty decent chip up if you just "steal" the blinds here...

I'm not sure the stack distribution here REALLY favors an immediate all in pre-flop, since there really are not a ton of really DEEP stacks that can afford to sheriff AK's with mid pp, or risk the loss with big over cards if the Hero has a mid pp, AND I do not think you really have enough truly short stacks who might stand under the same false hopes. But at least it is a play that COULD open the possibility of a mistake being made by an opp that gives the hero max value from the pre flop nuts.
 
Old
Default
Thu Dec 22, 2011, 11:30 PM
(#15)
oriholic's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 751
BronzeStar
Unless you've been doing any amount of limping, I think minraise-2.5xing (whatever is your standard at this level) is probably best, planning to get all in. You allow small pairs and good suited connectors to jam over you, that would not be calling a shove. Limping is fine if it won't look suspicious.

When you play AA on 13 BBs, you only really have one option. Get the money in. You're way too shallow to worry about getting outdrawn. I think you should just call the flop, and keep all his bluffs/semibluffs in. It's pretty hard for AA to be beat on a paired board. He'd need 77 or a 6. Don't worry about him catching up. Just let him bluff off his stack. Folding is not an option, and I think raising chases away too many hands you beat. Yes, most pocket pairs 88+ will come along, but they're playing way cheap on 13 BBs. You'd expect them to jam pre if they don't suspect you have a monster. Just seems like he has air here, and at best a draw like T8 or T9.


4 Time Bracelet Winner


 
Old
Default
Fri Dec 23, 2011, 01:10 AM
(#16)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,517
(Head Trainer)
I agree with the positions that said:

-Never dream of folding AA at any point in the hand when you start with 13 bb's
-Raise pre to your standard open (2.2-2.5x is mine)
-Flat call the flop bet.

I agree with Panicky that shoving over the flop bet will fold out bluffs and worse made hands, which you don't want to fold, you want them to put more money in. Let him bet the turn for you, and if the villain checks the turn you have position so you can then bet and get money in. Your best chance to make more money from worse hands is to flat, not raise them out.

It doesn't matter what the turn card is. You are already committed to getting all in, so there is no scary turn card. Get it in no matter what peels off, the villain will have worse easily often enough for this to be a profitable line.


Head Live Trainer
Check out my Videos

4 Time Bracelet Winner



 
Old
Wink
Fri Dec 23, 2011, 03:10 PM
(#17)
redkingly's Avatar
Since: Dec 2011
Posts: 4
Quote:
Originally Posted by PanickyPoker View Post
First off, don't be results-oriented. You had a reason to limp with aces. You said that the table was aggressive and someone was likely to raise. Had there been a raise, it's possible you could have doubled, tripled, or quadrupled up here in which case you likely would have been praising yourself for being so smart. Just because it didn't work out doesn't mean it wasn't a good play. If you had a good reason to do what you did, defend it.



I actually disagree with these statements. A paired board is beautiful for you. There are two cards that would sink you, but those cards are not going to be in either villain's range very often. When the villain bets out, he is usually semibluffing high cards or value betting a one pair hand. If you raise, you'll fold out most of his range that isn't trips or better. By calling, you might get another bluff on the turn, and if he was semibluffing a hand like KJo and hits a K or J on the turn, you'll probably get his whole stack.

I think you should call the flop.

I did something like that...
Thanks Panick

 
Old
Default
Fri Dec 23, 2011, 03:32 PM
(#18)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
Interesting hand. Although limping aces always becomes riskier the fewer people there are at the table even if they are agressive, so be cautious about that.

I think your calldown here was great. Well done.
 
Old
Default
Sat Dec 24, 2011, 03:55 AM
(#19)
marvinsytan's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 6,453
I keep reading this now I have something on why this strategy didn't work out well for me.

JDean is right

My table image is not suitable for this strategy. I think I never limped in this tournament except in the early stages which is why limping made it very suspicious. Suddenly I'm limping all the aggro there knew already I have a monster. If they have HUD that's a red light right there maybe my limping % is less than 10% or less than 5%.

Next time I will just raise because this is my normal behavior always comes out with a raise and maybe they will thought I'm raising because I'm at UTG and pretending to have something aggro players can still 3bet or even shove at me to push me out of the hand.

JDean is right, not only should I consider the table but my table image as well to make this strategy work. I forgot my table image I only knew that the table is aggro but forgot all about myself.

I'm in the middle stages of the tournament and I'm sure everyone is paying attention. If someone is doing something suspicious they will sure get the message.

So the best play would be do what you normally do and they will not be suspicious.
 
Old
Default
Sat Dec 24, 2011, 04:01 AM
(#20)
marvinsytan's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 6,453
Redkingly,

This is almost the same hand as my hand.

The only difference here is the stack size.

The betting pattern is almost the same too.

Even the flop is the same.

Good for you. You got 2 bet.

Good job at least you did your homework

The only problem is I don't like the shove at the river. You don't need to shove because the only hand that will call you at the river is the hands that will beat you.

Last edited by marvinsytan; Sat Dec 24, 2011 at 04:11 AM..
 

Getting PokerStars is easy: download and install the PokerStars game software, create your free player account, and validate your email address. Clicking on the download poker button will lead to the installation of compatible poker software on your PC of 51.7 MB, which will enable you to register and play poker on the PokerStars platform. To uninstall PokerStars use the Windows uninstaller: click Start > Control Panel and then select Add or Remove programs > Select PokerStars and click Uninstall or Remove.

Copyright (c) PokerSchoolOnline.com. All rights reserved, Rational Group, Douglas Bay Complex, King Edward Road, Onchan, Isle of Man, IM3 1DZ. You can email us on support@pokerschoolonline.com