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call range

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call range - Thu Dec 22, 2011, 04:56 PM
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wetmoose 613's Avatar
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when sitting at 10BB> and you get peeps shoving in front of you, what kind call range can you use?normal opening range would seem to be a tad on the nitty side considering if it s a big stack he could just be trying to abuse you.
normal shove range seems to me to be way loose, being as he could actually have a hand .
what y all think.
 
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Thu Dec 22, 2011, 05:16 PM
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JWK24's Avatar
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for me, it'll totally depend on how the table is playing. Normally, you need a better hand to call than to open and I'll try to shove first, not call. I want to get my chips in first, to have the opp make the decision, not have them shove and put the decision on me.
If I'm calling a shove, it's only going to be with a playable hand, better than what I'd open with.
 
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Thu Dec 22, 2011, 05:44 PM
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roomik17's Avatar
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unless op is a total spazz, I am only calling with AK, 99+ if op is a spazz 55+ A5+
 
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Thu Dec 22, 2011, 07:41 PM
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wetmoose 613's Avatar
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and if you are in the blinds and it comes from button or hijack?
 
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Thu Dec 22, 2011, 07:43 PM
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Grade b's Avatar
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We would rather be shoving first than calling but if your raised every hand wait till you have good position (so not 5 people in the pot) before picking a spot to call.

Grade b


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13 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Fri Dec 23, 2011, 12:00 AM
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PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
There is a matehematically correct way to figure out this answer for just about any situation, but the calculations are difficult to perform in-game, so most people just practice with Sit 'n Go Wizard.

Ultimately, you need to be able to approximate the villain's shoving range, though. If you're ahead of that range, it usually worth calling.
 
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Fri Dec 23, 2011, 01:15 AM
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JDean's Avatar
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Establishing a call range for a 10BB stack is largely a function of establishing a raise range for the opponent betting ahead of you FIRST.

There are tons of factors which go into doing this, like open raiser's stack size, position, your table image (and the image of other short stacks left to act), what you have seen the open raiser do before with certain hands, etc. This is the trickiest part of establishing your CALL RANGE to be honest, and to help you out, check out this videoes:

http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/art...3-Hand-Reading
http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/art...ith-Aggression
http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/art...r-exploitation
http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/art...quity-Maximize

Once you have established a valid raise range for the opponent, you will want to hold a hand which is likely to have 50% equity+ versus the TOP HALF of the raise range of the first to act villain, in order to justify a call.

The reason you cannot justify a call with just 50% equity versus his ENTIRE range is contained within the Gap Concept (see link here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poker_strategy#Gap_concept )

(Please note: if you are VERY SHORT, under 5BB, often times you will not be able to wait for a situation where you have 50%+ equity versus the top half of an open raise range. 5BB means you will post off 30% of your stack in your next round of blinds, and you cannot really WAIT for a guarenteed +eV spot to call. That short 50%+ equity versus an entire raise range would be fine really. But 10BB you still have a little bit of time to wait, so you sdo not want to run the risk the raiser is at the top end of his range, see?)

The way this concept works is pretty simple...

FIRST:

Let's say you think the opponent who has raised ahead of you will do so on a 20% range of hands. (Please note, a lot of raise ranges will be far tighter than this, and you should adjust based on your table observations).

This range would consist of: pp AA to 66, Any 2 broadway cards, Any off suit A to A9, Any suited Ace to A4s, K8s, K9s, Q9s, J9s, and T9s.

Pretty wide.

Versus this ENTIRE RANGE, to have 50%+ equity all you'd need is a hand very SLIGHTLY BETTER than his hand, say a top 17% or 18% hand.

That is not enough to CALL though...

NEXT:

The problem with playing for a CALL with as wide a range as 17% or 18% vs a 20% raise range is that you have only 1 way to win: holding the best hand at show down.

Because you are CALLING, the hand WILL go to showdown.

(even if his open raise is less than your entire stack, any jam by you over his open raise is pretty much laying odds that the initial raiser will probably have to call. That means you have very little shot at getting him to fold to a re-raise, see?)

The thing about ranging an opponent is that you never know where exactly within that range his actual hand falls. Sometimes he will be at the bottom end of the range, and hold something like A4s, but sometimes he will be at the TOP end and hold something like QQ.

Since you have no fold equity, and since you have no idea where exactly in his range the open raiser is, you must have a hand with 50%+ equity versus the top HALF of his range. This means you will have 50%+ equity at least half the time versus his open raise, see?

If you make sure to do that, then the times he is at the top end of his range you will tend to not be as far behind, and the times he is at the bottom of his open raise range you will tend to be farther ahead...

To show an example of that thought, check this out:

We have our villain's open raise range of 20%.

We know that we must have 50% equity versus the top HALF of that range.

This means we have to look at his actual range as about a 10% range, and check our equity versus that range.

If we restrict our CALLS to about an 8% or 9% range, (a range consisting of: pp 88+, AJo+, ATs+, KQo, KTs+, QJs only), we will have about 50.8% equity versus the top HALF of a 20% open raise range.

THAT establishes our CALLING RANGE on a stack that carries almost 0 fold equity, in order to play for stacks.

In Closing:

The important thing for you to remember is that a CALL is NOT the Same as a bet or a raise.

When you bet or raise you tend to have 2 ways to win: by holding the best hand OR by making a slightly better hand FOLD.

When you call, you have just 1 way to win: by holding the best hand.

Since you do not know WHERE in his entire range an open raiser might be, you want to ensure that you have better than 50% equity versus the TOP HALF of his total range.

By doing that, the times he is at the bottom half you are even farther ahead...

Hope it helps.

-JDean


Double Bracelet Winner

Last edited by JDean; Fri Dec 23, 2011 at 01:36 AM..
 
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Fri Dec 23, 2011, 11:16 PM
(#8)
wetmoose 613's Avatar
Since: Dec 2010
Posts: 434
ChromeStar
thank you all for your replies .it was informative and will help i m sure.
by the way JD your not long winded;thorough and concise is more accurate.
 

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