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Big 8

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Big 8 - Fri Dec 23, 2011, 01:28 PM
(#1)
PINOY_HITMAN's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,717
I know its a donk play that got lucky but i catched this late registration on 38 mins running.

My game plan for this tournament if play tight and aggressive and often shove monster hands.

I shove here after the flop knowing i ahead of them preflop as they simple called my raise.


anyway i can play this hand?

sorry did not notice before it's same hand, i edit it now.

please give some input.

thanks


next hand is my last hand

it's still far from the bubbles and i have no intention to cash in at the minimum.

i'm very willing to take the risk if i had an opportunity to double up.



seeing the opportunity here is i instantly called his raise.

please need some advise how should it play it? should i re-raise preflop to represents a monster hand?

Last edited by PINOY_HITMAN; Sat Dec 24, 2011 at 12:35 AM.. Reason: Update Hand
 
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Fri Dec 23, 2011, 02:01 PM
(#2)
oriholic's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 751
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Preflop is fine. You have a hand that plays very very well postflop and good position. If you 3-bet and get 4-bet you're forced to fold a strong hand that plays very well postflop. Probably better to 3-bet a mix of air and monsters here than fairly strong hands. J4s for instance has no postflop value, but if you can get your opponents to fold a decent percentage of the time, it can be worthwhile to 3-bet it sometimes. I don't think you're deep enough or even shallow enough to be 3-betting KQs. Calling and playing postflop is your best option. (unless you're a horrific postflop player maybe--in which case folding is probably better than 3-betting.)

On the flop you have a big flush draw with two overs. That is a MONSTER flop, and there is no reason not to be happy to get the money in even as deep as your 40 BBs. However, minraising the field is probably not the best option. I'd prefer either a call or more likely a raise to an amount like 4500, that looks like you want a fold, and just might still be able to fold yourself, but builds a nice pot and pretty much forces him to shove/fold. I think a minraise allows him to just call with his pairs and even his weaker draws (and you really really want him to shove his T8s!).

Unfortunately you lost the flip against his particular hand. You should have a pretty good edge against his range though.


4 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Fri Dec 23, 2011, 11:50 PM
(#3)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,802
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Preflop: it's a playable hand with over 6BB in the pot before you. I'd absolutely be happy to call and see the flop.

Flop: you have a strong draw, 2 overcards and a flush draw. However, I wouldn't necessarily count the overcards, because someone could have AQ or AK. The first opp leads out for twice what they bet preflop and the 2nd opp calls. Since you only have a draw here, I'd call, instead of raising. I wouldn't raise here unless I get some sort of made hand... be it a pair or a flush. Anyone that would call a raise or 3-bet you will have a pair on the board, overpair or a set. I'd rather just call and re-evaluate on the turn. Yes, you have a strong draw, but as of now you'd be behind any of those combination.

If I had seen the turn and saw the made flush.... I'm shoving the turn in a heartbeat. Yes, you'd have still been outdrawed by the opp on the river, but at least then I'd be getting my chips in with the best hand, instead of being behind.


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6 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Sat Dec 24, 2011, 12:20 AM
(#4)
PINOY_HITMAN's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,717
Quote:
Originally Posted by oriholic View Post
Preflop is fine. You have a hand that plays very very well postflop and good position. If you 3-bet and get 4-bet you're forced to fold a strong hand that plays very well postflop. Probably better to 3-bet a mix of air and monsters here than fairly strong hands. J4s for instance has no postflop value, but if you can get your opponents to fold a decent percentage of the time, it can be worthwhile to 3-bet it sometimes. I don't think you're deep enough or even shallow enough to be 3-betting KQs. Calling and playing postflop is your best option. (unless you're a horrific postflop player maybe--in which case folding is probably better than 3-betting.)
Thanks oriholic
how many BB before you can consider it as Deep or shallow? any cut off?

i'm not a good at bluff but i'm trying to add it in my forte.
i'm comfortable doing semi-bluff only.
i guess i'm a little below average on post flop play
i'm trying to do more post flop plays with 2 opp with lower stacks than me


Quote:
Originally Posted by oriholic View Post
On the flop you have a big flush draw with two overs. That is a MONSTER flop, and there is no reason not to be happy to get the money in even as deep as your 40 BBs. However, minraising the field is probably not the best option. I'd prefer either a call or more likely a raise to an amount like 4500, that looks like you want a fold, and just might still be able to fold yourself, but builds a nice pot and pretty much forces him to shove/fold. I think a minraise allows him to just call with his pairs and even his weaker draws (and you really really want him to shove his T8s!).

Unfortunately you lost the flip against his particular hand. You should have a pretty good edge against his range though.
i'll try it in some of my games

Thanks and Happy Holidays
 
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Sat Dec 24, 2011, 12:31 AM
(#5)
PINOY_HITMAN's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,717
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWK24 View Post
Preflop: it's a playable hand with over 6BB in the pot before you. I'd absolutely be happy to call and see the flop.

Flop: you have a strong draw, 2 overcards and a flush draw. However, I wouldn't necessarily count the overcards, because someone could have AQ or AK. The first opp leads out for twice what they bet preflop and the 2nd opp calls. Since you only have a draw here, I'd call, instead of raising. I wouldn't raise here unless I get some sort of made hand... be it a pair or a flush. Anyone that would call a raise or 3-bet you will have a pair on the board, overpair or a set. I'd rather just call and re-evaluate on the turn. Yes, you have a strong draw, but as of now you'd be behind any of those combination.
Note well taken,
Thanks. Hope i will pin him down next time

Quote:
Originally Posted by JWK24 View Post
If I had seen the turn and saw the made flush.... I'm shoving the turn in a heartbeat. Yes, you'd have still been outdrawed by the opp on the river, but at least then I'd be getting my chips in with the best hand, instead of being behind.
I'll keep in mind, i guess i got trigger happy when i see the opportunity.

Thanks again.

Happy Holidays.
 
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Sat Dec 24, 2011, 12:38 AM
(#6)
PINOY_HITMAN's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,717
need some input on the fist hand, i just updated it.
thanks and happy holidays
 
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Sat Dec 24, 2011, 01:49 AM
(#7)
oriholic's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 751
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Hey Hitman, it's really better to just put one hand per thread unless they're related.

As for your QQ hand....why are you raising to 7x UTG preflop?? You're building an enormous pot with a pair. With nearly 70 BBs in your stack there's gotta be a better option than trying to play QQ for all your chips. Just make a standard raise preflop and see what the flop brings. You really don't want to be stacking off on this flop as all you have is one pair. And by shoving you don't even allow the other guys to bluff you. You fold out every single one of their worse hands (and there are a lot of those) and only get called by better. Maybe JJ calls, but against, JJ-AA, 22, 77, TT, you're doing pretty terrible. And if you add some hands like AKs you're still not in good shape. Against a player with a range of JJ-AA, 22, 77, TT, KsJs, AsJs, AsKs you're only about 35% to win. Yuck. Really, what else do you expect to call your massive preflop raise and a flop shove? If we remove JJ from his range then you're only about 18%. Yes, most of the time we expect a fold but when called we're doing pretty terrible. Against two players we're only about 12% to win if they have JJ in their calling range, and 9% if they don't....that's awful.


4 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Sat Dec 24, 2011, 01:04 PM
(#8)
PINOY_HITMAN's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,717
Quote:
Originally Posted by oriholic View Post
Hey Hitman, it's really better to just put one hand per thread unless they're related.

As for your QQ hand....why are you raising to 7x UTG preflop?? You're building an enormous pot with a pair. With nearly 70 BBs in your stack there's gotta be a better option than trying to play QQ for all your chips. Just make a standard raise preflop and see what the flop brings. You really don't want to be stacking off on this flop as all you have is one pair. And by shoving you don't even allow the other guys to bluff you. You fold out every single one of their worse hands (and there are a lot of those) and only get called by better. Maybe JJ calls, but against, JJ-AA, 22, 77, TT, you're doing pretty terrible. And if you add some hands like AKs you're still not in good shape. Against a player with a range of JJ-AA, 22, 77, TT, KsJs, AsJs, AsKs you're only about 35% to win. Yuck. Really, what else do you expect to call your massive preflop raise and a flop shove? If we remove JJ from his range then you're only about 18%. Yes, most of the time we expect a fold but when called we're doing pretty terrible. Against two players we're only about 12% to win if they have JJ in their calling range, and 9% if they don't....that's awful.
if i remember it right i want to cut off other players and isolate the BB hoping he will depend his blinds.
points well taken and i'll try to develop my post flop plays.
thanks again and Happy Holidays
 
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Sat Dec 24, 2011, 06:23 PM
(#9)
PINOY_HITMAN's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,717
Thanks a lot to both of you guys: oriholic and JWK24

And here is the result of your advice.
My last hand.




PSO Premiere League Final Table.

Need to get some
HAPPY HOLIDAYS.
 
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Sun Dec 25, 2011, 03:24 AM
(#10)
marvinsytan's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 6,453
Hey Pinoy Hitman

merry christmas pare. Christmas here in the Philippines December 25, 2011 4:00pm. What am I doing? Hand analysis

I would like to try to analyze your hands but please don't take it too seriously because I'm a student I want to learn also by knowing the problems of other players in case I get the same hand I will know what to do.

First Hand:

Pre: Yes, I agree with oriholic your raise is too much. I think 200 is enough. Oriholic is correct again you don't want to play with all your stack with just QQ. In poker you really need to play post flop. To be able to be a good poker player you need to be a good post flop player not a pre flop player because everybody can do that already.

If you a a monster hand and you will always raise like that no one will call you anymore. It's Hitman the moment he got a big hand he will raise more than what the standard raise. Good player will notice that.

You need to regular your raise so that other players will not know what you got. Don't change your raising pattern according to your hand.

Example: if you got 88 you will just raise 3x the blind and if you got AA you will raise 6x the blind.Good players will easily note you that because it's a pattern that can easily be seen.

I see why you shove post flop. Because you said that your not a good post flop player. But because your not a good post flop player you need to practice. You can't just shove post flop everybody will just fold and the only player will call you is the hands that beat you just like what happened.

When playing poker you have to be confident.

raising 6bb's PRE UTG is playing scared to be called by random hand. I know this because this is also me when I'm a begginner. I don't want to be outplayed. That's why I want to raise big then as you would do if there's no A or K on the flop I would go all in also. This is very wrong we lost value here.

We can just raise 3 to 3.5BB then raise 75% of he pot just to get value from drawing hands and mid pp.

if ever you raise 3BB then someone 4bet then another one 5bet All in I don't think our Q's will be good in here. You might fold and lose 3BB instead of 6 BB.

Last edited by marvinsytan; Mon Dec 26, 2011 at 01:37 AM..
 
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Sun Dec 25, 2011, 07:28 AM
(#11)
PINOY_HITMAN's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,717
Quote:
Originally Posted by marvinsytan View Post
Hey Pinoy Hitman

merry christmas pare. Christmas here in the Philippines December 25, 2011 4:00pm. What am I doing? Hand analysis

I would like to try to analyze your hands but please don't take it too seriously because I'm a student I want to learn also by knowing the problems of other players in case I get the same hand I will know what to do.

First Hand:

Pre: Yes, I agree with oriholic your raise is too much. I think 200 is enough. Oriholic is correct again you don't want to play with all your stack with just QQ. In poker you really need to play post flop. To be able to be a good poker player you need to be a good post flop player not a pre flop player because everybody can do that already.

If you a a monster hand and you will always raise like that no one will call you anymore. It's Hitman the moment he got a big hand he will raise more than what the standard raise. Good player will notice that.

You need to regular your raise so that other players will not know what you got. Don't change your raising pattern according to your hand.

Example: if you got 88 you will just raise 3x the blind and if you got AA you will raise 6x the blind.Good players will easily note you that because it's a pattern that can easily be seen.

I see why you shove post flop. Because you said that your not a good post flop player. But because your not a good post flop player you need to practice. You can't just shove post flop everybody will just fold and the only player will call you is the hands that beat you just like what happened.

When playing poker you have to be confident.

raising 6bb's PRE UTG is playing scared to be called by random hand. I know this because this is also me when I'm a begginner I don't know what to do If----

to be continued
Merry Christmas also Pare. How the celebration?

Thanks for the advice pare. I'll practice more of my post flop play in Skill Leagues mostly in Open because it won't cause me a point once i got early exit.

Thanks for the encouragement pare.

as i remember my 6BB raise is a blocking raise to isolate the BB and hope to double me up.
don't have any info or what so ever on other players, i mind set if so focus on the BB stacks. LOL.

But now i know that you should have a plan depends on how the other players react to your action and re-assess the situation on the given new information before taking action.

I guess need to cut half of my insta-call instinct when playing against small stack because it gives me a lot of trouble in the end games. I should stick this words to my mind " EVERY CHIPS COUNTS".

Enjoy the Christman pare and God bless.
 
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about cashing in at the minimum - Mon Dec 26, 2011, 01:59 AM
(#12)
marvinsytan's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 6,453
this thinking is also my thinking until our great Teachers told me this.

How can you win big money when your not in the money.

If you keep thinking you want to win it all the way think of cashing first before you think of winning all the way.

Because for example you risk your tournament life in a big pot with a flush draw for 300BB's but your not yet in the money. If you lose your out of the tournament. If you win you just got 300BB's which is massive but not guarantee that you can be in the Final Table.

To win the tournament

Don't risk your tournament life as often as possible unless you have the nuts.

You need to win chips by outplaying your opponents by making them fold.

If you in the money, If you think the pot is good enough to risk your tournament life and that is a massive chip up if ever you win that pot you might be in the final table then by all means Gamble and hope for the best.

In your 2 hands I saw that you have accumulate chips already but the problem is you like to gamble. Just like in hand#2 yes it's KQs. Yes, a call is ok but at that situation i might go for a raise or if I can't raise because I don't have enough stacks to play postflop i would just fold but will not risk my tournament life for FD. I can just call postflop and wait for my flush to come first. because he only bets 1600. no need to min raise there if your going to 3bet you need to 3bet hard to make your story believable.

yes, this is another advice I got from our teacher.

if your going to tell a story make it a believable one. That's why if your going to raise, you need to raise hard don not min raise it is not believable.

playing poker is like telling a story. even you don't have a good hand like 72o but you told a story that your hand is AA. by raising hard of course you can't do that without knowing your opponent.

For example your opp raise and you 3bet 3x the raise of your opp if your opp is always raising light. He will said to himself Oh no he got a monster but if he want to continue he would just call and see the flop if you got position and he checks you will see his story that his hand his weak but you need to continue telling your story. Ok, I got a strong hand you check means your weak me, even though my hand is also weak but I have a story and I will continue to tell my story if you bet 75% of the pot he might just fold there and you make your story believable that he believes in your story.
 
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6BB raise is a blocking raise to isolate the BB - Mon Dec 26, 2011, 02:15 AM
(#13)
marvinsytan's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 6,453
your UTG you can't isolate the BB just by raising 6BB's

the only time you can isolate if someone raise and you 3bet the raiser that's the time you can isolate the initial raiser.

The problem with raising 6bb is you ballooned the pot already PRE and when you bet postflop it's too big that your almost pot committed to the pot.

you got Q's UTG is a good hand you don't need to isolate someone. if you got 2 callers, then there's A or K you can fold immediately and you lose only 3BB's as to 6BB's.

your right every chip count.

just play standard poker because it is the right thing.

PRE: just raise 3BB's or 3.5BB's

Postflop: 50%-75% of the pot is enough

3bet: 3x the raisers bet.

if you do that you will get the information you need from your opp and you can still fold if they shove and you will still have some chips left for you to play.

do not min raise it's a weak bet unless you want to trap them. if you don't have a monster hand do not min raise you will just make the pot bigger without 100% of winning the pot. If you want to raise raise 3x the initial's raiser and you might win the pot risk free.

again, you want to accumulate chips risk free

Teacher also told me,

you want to win the pot 2 ways always. so calling is always not an option.

like your KQs even though there are 2 players already in the pot. If I want to enterin the pot the opp make a weak min raise and another opp made a call I might 3bet there to 2300 so that I can get info from what they have and I have 40BB so I still have lots of room for postflop play.

By raising you get information by calling you get 0 information.As much as possible you want to know what your opp have.

Again, Pinoy_Hitman

This is not a valid advice because I'm just a student here I'm not a PRO or even a good player I don't have a resume to back up my opinion.

This is also a study. I'm also studying here to know what to do when this kind of situation arises.

vacation is good here I'm at coron palawan. how about you?
 

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