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AJhh on the bttn vs utg raiser

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AJhh on the bttn vs utg raiser - Mon Dec 26, 2011, 09:16 AM
(#1)
rule110's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 147
This ha

Last edited by rule110; Sat Jun 09, 2012 at 01:54 PM..
 
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Mon Dec 26, 2011, 09:45 AM
(#2)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
His behaviour in this hand was pretty transparent, imo, although this might not be so apparent to some people. I think his turn check/minraise was kind of bad (if you're going to check, at least make the raise bigger so you don't need to overbet the river), but otherwise, he played it pretty well.

Donk betting any significant amount on the flop usually indicates two pair or better, or a draw. In this case, when he checked the turn, I figured it was probably because he put you on a jack and figured another semibluff wouldn't work, but when he raised, it became clear that he thought he had the nuts.

I imagine I would have played it a lot like you did. I don't really see any problems, unless you thought you were ahead on the turn. I think two pair or a nut flush draw is the weakest I'm continuing with after the minraise, and I'm folding to the river bet without a boat or nut flush on an unpaired board unless his river bet is under half the pot.

I think you played it pretty well.
 
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Mon Dec 26, 2011, 09:54 AM
(#3)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
I've looked at it again, and I like your turn bet quite a lot. Less than half the pot, it's enough to charge the flush draws in his range and get them to draw, but since almost all of the hands in his range that aren't drawing are crushing you, there's no need to risk more than half the pot when you should be folding if he reraises enough. I think you're saving a ton of big blinds in all the cases he's beating you (provided you're willing to fold the turn), while actually getting more acton in the cases he's not. I don't think I would have thought to do that. I like it a lot.

One more thing though: I would tend to fold this preflop to an UTG open. Maybe that's my SNG nittiness kicking in, though.
 
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Mon Dec 26, 2011, 10:06 AM
(#4)
rule110's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 147
I don

Last edited by rule110; Sat Jun 09, 2012 at 01:54 PM..
 
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Mon Dec 26, 2011, 11:31 AM
(#5)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
Quote:
Originally Posted by rule110 View Post
He had been involved in a lot of pots... I wanted to take a flop.
This kind of begs the question, why were you in so many pots?
 
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Mon Dec 26, 2011, 01:29 PM
(#6)
rule110's Avatar
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Posts: 147
[QU=P

Last edited by rule110; Sat Jun 09, 2012 at 01:54 PM..
 
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Tue Dec 27, 2011, 08:49 AM
(#7)
holdemace486's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,760
hi i personally put him on a set on the flop and would of folded ,once you saw the turn u were nether going to fold,be carefull with those situations,this time paid off but other times lucky rivers dont happen,he played the hand correctly sry but you got lucky on the river,neither plays were bad in my opinion,just i thought u thought u were good on the flop when in fact u were not,but it worked out weell in the finish
 
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Tue Dec 27, 2011, 10:25 AM
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PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
Amazing how good my reads are when I completely misread the situation.

I'd probably lead big on the turn, reship his raise, and suck out.
 
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Tue Dec 27, 2011, 01:14 PM
(#9)
rule110's Avatar
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[QUla sry but you

Last edited by rule110; Sat Jun 09, 2012 at 01:55 PM..
 
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check reraise - Tue Dec 27, 2011, 03:27 PM
(#10)
holdemace486's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,760
no i think your call to the check reraise was the play to make on the turn,knowing if you hit your ace you were miles ahead if you had read he had housed on the turn,however on the flop i would of reraised his bet to see if he had the set i suspected,he either calls or reraises wich would instantly suggest strenght in the hand unless hes on some sort of fishy draw but utg raise suggests not and then fires on the flop,so im instantly thinking set or overpair,then he check reraises the turn wich surely with an over pair he would not do with jj on the board so confirms his set and that he has just housed in my book,then you call his reraise wisely good play not to shove there gives you the chance to escape or keep it cheeper thats jus y htoughts on it
 
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Tue Dec 27, 2011, 03:39 PM
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JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
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The info you provide seems to indicate a player who is pretty aggressive, even oop, has a reasonable ability to range opponents and apply pressure, and one who has an opportunistic start hand range.

To me, it looks like he is trying to pick his spots, and exploit players.

He also probably has some info you you, and is likely to think he can attack your LAG type range pretty liberally.

To me, this would say that I do not want to really try to tangle a lot with this guy, as he seems to have a clue what he is doing, and also is quite good at putting opponents to a tough decision. If I "must" battle with him, I want to tend to do it from the top end of my range, and in position.

With that said...

PRE FLOP:

Normally I am not really in love with calling a UTG min raise on the button with a hand like AJs.

- If this guy were a more ABC type TAG or TP, I'd much prefer to just dump AJs than really try to out play them. the risk is just not worth the likely pay off.

- If he were more of a "normal" LAG, I would prefer to RAISE on the button with this hand to iso. I want him all alone so my decisions are clearer, and my pressure moves have more chance to work.

Versus this guy though, AJs is a hand that I would willingly call on with the BTN.

- It fulfills my desire to play near the top end of my range.
- His opportunistic nature may tend to make him wider than normal UTG, so AJs will tend to play decently.
- The fact I am suited weighs in heavily, because a lot of my future decisions versus his bet patterns will tend to require that I have some sort of draw strength to back up single pair hits a decent amount of the time.

This is a spot that I REALLY prefer to have something beyond pair value to fall back upon to play against this guy's likely pressure game. I like having that because his AGGRESSIVE nature will tend to lead me to call more, rather than raise, and the potential draws will add a lot for me.

I do not think I'd want to call along with AJo, because it lacks the same sort of benefits as suited, and while AJ is near the top of my LAG range, it is not quite near enough for me to want to try out playing this guy with jsut 1 pair potential...

So I do like your flat here.

FLOP:

It goes 3 way to the flop.

You hit top/top, but do not have any draws.

Villain leads 36c into about a 51c pot (about 70%).

You have to expect a decent number of C-Bets here, and an over pair to your J is a distinct possibility. Still, if you are going to play for the raise pre flop, you pretty much have to call to see what he does on the turn.

My thoughts are that since I have seen a decent number of C/R's by him, I am NOT leading into him if he checks the turn though. This is the sort of player who will likely bet the river with LESS than a 1 pair hand even if you check the turn behind a check, and he is also likely to test you strongly if you try to bet for value.

TURN:

You turn trips, and villain checks to you.

Now un-like a situation where you see NO improvement, you've now picked up what might be BIG improvement.

I really like your small-ish lead over his check.

We have seen this guy is in love with out playing opponents.
As such, he is quite likely to C/R ANY weak seeming lead over his check.

We hold a hand that is now going to be better than a lot of his hands that were beating us on the flop (the big over pairs), AND his desire to out play us with something like AKc/AQc might lead him to try to C/R semi bluff.
We are ahead of those hands.

Also, in the event that he flopped a set and we are BEHIND, a small-ish lead makes any C/R for value he might make a much easier CALL for us. Since ANY C/R by the villain sets up an SPR that favors us calling the river, we really are not highly bluff-able here, so we really should be thinking in terms of the fact we MIGHT be beat here too if he C/R's.

The C/R comes, and it is small. This is quite an easy call for us...

I really like your turn play.

RIVER:

GIN!

You spike the A on the river, giving you Js full, and that is a GREAT CARD.

That card means that even if the villain had a set on the flop, you are now ahead.
The only hand he could hold that beats you is AA, and if he sucked out, his play pattern says he is much more prone to check to you, and let you bet, then jam. At the very least, an AA spike is likely to see him leading smaller, like around half pot...

The fact he open leads for an All In really means he is not bluffing here very often, as his small C/R on the turn made by a pretty aware player means he KNEW he was setting up for a river ship. The problem for him is that you can now BEAT all of his hands that could be setting up a ship with a turn C/R! \o/

His showdown hand, 99, is almost face up to you and an insta-call because of the way this played out.

Had you NOT spiked the A on the river, his hand should be just about as "face up", making it possible for you to get away here and save $4.40...this guy just has NOT shown enough int he way of "bluffiness" to call for stacks here with just AJ.

So all in all, I think you took a GREAT line against a highly aggro player.

Against someone who will test you strongly, you really do not want to be betting and raising on somewhat marginal hands very often. Doing so will see a lot of 3bets that you might be loathe to call, and you may not want to get into a 4bet/fold situation either.

So this was an EXTREMELY well played hand by you, versus a player who is probably well above the "typical" micro stakes player. I cannot say HE did anything wrong here either, as everything you did screamed "just a jack" at most, and he could beat that.

The thing that is great about YOUR play is that you used your positional advantage to put yourself into the best possible spot, to make the best possible decision. THAT is some good poker rule110...

Before I close, just 1 Question: if the river comes a K instead, do you STILL call on AJ given the info you had?

Hope it helps.

-JDean


Double Bracelet Winner

Last edited by JDean; Tue Dec 27, 2011 at 04:29 PM..
 
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Fri Dec 30, 2011, 12:58 AM
(#12)
rule110's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 147
I woav

Last edited by rule110; Sat Jun 09, 2012 at 01:55 PM..
 
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Fri Dec 30, 2011, 02:16 PM
(#13)
XXChris123's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,512
BronzeStar
villain should have put you all in on the turn
since he did not he allowed you to catch up
the way he played when the river came I put him on AA and thought you were doomed
I should had put him on 99 for a set
actually I should have put him on a range of hands
which included 99 + AA
I did place him as being stronger than you
so much so I was unsure if that A on river helped you or sealed your doom
replay the hand over and over
forget the history of that player
just replay that hand
look how in reality you were almost making mistakes
why almost ?
because villain bets incorrectly
had villain bet correctly you would have been making mistakes
once you can see how you almost made mistakes or even kinda did make mistakes each street
replay it again
this time think like the villain be the villain
once you play it from his point of view you see his mistakes
I think its very important to do this with this hand
the reason being from both his view and your view
this type of thing happens over + over again
you will see this event play out again in the future
in fact quite a lot
the key is to recognize it and know exactly where you at in future
be nice to see odds on each street
If I had villains hand I am making you pay full stack on turn
thats the correct play and the most profitable
if villain goes all in on turn a lot of good players are folding
that reduces number of times he is sucked out on
a lot of players are calling this means he is getting max returns when he is good against oh say 9 outs or less or so on turn
so if villain plays this hand 100 times same hand and he goes all in on turn 100 times
everytime he gets called he is like 85% plus to win
so he is making great rewards
if he waits till river where most players miss he never gets paid off
by pushing on turn he stops draws and also forces draws to pay off to the max
see ???????

playing a hand correctly is far more important than wining or losing a single hand
because villain played hand incorrectly
you played hand correctly
had villain played correctly you would have been forced to fold or to gamble when you were very far behind
a good player would have folded your hand most likely on turn to an all in bet
maybe .... I think
I'm not sure
.
.
.
 
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Fri Dec 30, 2011, 07:17 PM
(#14)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by rule110 View Post
I would have hated to fold
But COULD you have folded?

...that is the question.

This one REALLY sniffed like a set. If you do not boat on the turn, the depth of money left in your stack probably makes a fold possible; afterall, money not lost spends the same as money won.

That is the tough thing about playing against someone who seems to be a very solid opponent: big lay downs like trips with an A kicker become a lot bigger part of your overall game...

I mean is there ANYTHING in this guy's play that would make you think he might stack off and NOT be able to beat trip Js with an A?


Double Bracelet Winner
 
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Fri Dec 30, 2011, 10:50 PM
(#15)
rule110's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 147
[QU

Last edited by rule110; Sat Jun 09, 2012 at 01:56 PM..
 

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