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big draw w/ bad outs

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big draw w/ bad outs - Sat Dec 31, 2011, 09:14 PM
(#1)
rule110's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 147
my opponents in this hand had been playing relatively tight. BB had been playing badly and I was after his remaining chips w/ a hand with decent winning chances vs whatever he had.

On the turn I knew I was behind and I felt the sb had a better flush draw then I did. I guessed I had 7outs and I decided to call. Do you call the turn here?

Sorry, this hand was deleted by its owner
 
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Sat Dec 31, 2011, 09:31 PM
(#2)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
I don't see why not to call the turn bet. You have 6 straight outs and potentially 9 flush outs. Call and reevaluate on the river imo. I like that you didn't bet the turn, because you're not getting a queen or a set to fold, which is a part of both ranges, especially the SB's if he's playing tight from the blinds at all.
 
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Sun Jan 01, 2012, 01:04 AM
(#3)
PaidInFull6's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 342
I would definitely call the turn, getting a great price I wouldn't fold a combo draw there. Seems bad because you were up against a better flush draw but your not always going to be facing better flush draws in this spot. However I would have opened for a larger raise preflop, 2 bb's is just inviting action with a hand that really doesn't want it.
 
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Sun Jan 01, 2012, 12:31 PM
(#4)
PSO-xflixx's Avatar
Since: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,119
(Live Trainer)
Hi rule110,

There is probably not much wrong with playing the hand like you did. However, I think it should be much more +EV to barrel the turn again, even against two players. The reasons should be:

a) the massive amount of pot equity alone justifies putting more money into the pot and generating potential value for turn + river
b) you can produce some additional foldequity against middlish pairs or weak queens and you maybe even get better flushdraws to fold out their equity. Also betting into two tight villains here makes your range look a lot stronger.

A passive c/c line on the turn also has an additional flaw of making it very hard to get paid off on the river if you hit.

- Felix


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didnt like it - Sun Jan 01, 2012, 12:52 PM
(#5)
holdemace486's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,760
hi m8t i didnt like the play was costly

preflop cutoff min raise 67 suited fine
as soon as the button calls instanstantly thinking aq
sb calls thinking small pair or similar hand to my own
bb folds
flop-qd 3s 5s
great flop for 6 7 s
well not so great if you break it down
the button could off been slow playing qq giving him his set and ful house pottentially,
or as my first thought aq with maybe a spade
the sb at this stage i did not have any really thought but what i thought preflop
ok so sb checks you bet 20
button calls,sb calls,
i think you should have checked the flop and tried to keep it cheap as you had only draws and a possibility people had better draws and the obvious worry of the q.

ok the turn comes 8h,sb checks you check,i really like your check ere in one way but after leading out on the flop i would continue bet ere maybe to test to see if he had the q i suspected him of,
so any way he leads out 56c
at this stage because you have both checked he knows his q is good and as put you both on some sort of draw,
sb calls you call that just confirms it to him that you both are on a fish,but more worry to you was the sb call,personally a turn fold would of been the option to make once sb had called,
i would be really worried when sb called thinking set or higher draw,

the river well nothing else but a big bluff would of got through,
 
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Sun Jan 01, 2012, 01:06 PM
(#6)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
Quote:
Originally Posted by PSO-xflixx View Post
you maybe even get better flushdraws to fold out their equity. Also betting into two tight villains here makes your range look a lot stronger.

A passive c/c line on the turn also has an additional flaw of making it very hard to get paid off on the river if you hit.
Wow. I totally didn't think of either of these. Yay for learning new stuff every day.
 
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Sun Jan 01, 2012, 01:48 PM
(#7)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,499
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by rule110 View Post
On the turn I knew I was behind and I felt the sb had a better flush draw then I did. I guessed I had 7outs and I decided to call. Do you call the turn here?
I think you have to call the turn with this many outs, but honestly the turn is a great barrel card for you, I'd be barreling this turn all day long. You can get a lot of light flop calls to go away and win with 7 high (it's possible but not 100% that someone has a Q or flush draw). And you've picked up additional equity with the open ended straight draw. Even if the SB does have a flush draw, you only have 7 high. If you barrel the turn and only get called by bigger spades, they will check fold to a 3rd barrel when they don't improve on the river. Really this is a mandatory turn bet imo as you have good equity to improve and it sets up a profitable river bluff vs. a single opponent (if they both call the turn barrel I wouldn't generally fire the river, I think then it's too likely at least one of them has a Q and isn't folding).


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Sun Jan 01, 2012, 01:49 PM
(#8)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,499
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by PSO-xflixx View Post
Hi rule110,

There is probably not much wrong with playing the hand like you did. However, I think it should be much more +EV to barrel the turn again, even against two players. The reasons should be:

a) the massive amount of pot equity alone justifies putting more money into the pot and generating potential value for turn + river
b) you can produce some additional foldequity against middlish pairs or weak queens and you maybe even get better flushdraws to fold out their equity. Also betting into two tight villains here makes your range look a lot stronger.

A passive c/c line on the turn also has an additional flaw of making it very hard to get paid off on the river if you hit.

- Felix

^^And this. Good points.


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Check out my Videos

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Mon Jan 02, 2012, 12:08 AM
(#9)
rule110's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 147
point taken on putting in that second barrel on the turn, xflixx and TheLangolier. I really should have been betting there, with all my outs and facing multiple tight opponents. I didn't like my passive c/c on the turn either. Rewatching the hand now my turn check looks terrible.

Do you think I should be check-raising this turn some percentage of the time, as a check-raise would look fairly strong here too? Or is that just putting in too much money w/ 7high?
 

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