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turn bet too small?-$3.5R 180man

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turn bet too small?-$3.5R 180man - Thu Jan 05, 2012, 11:57 AM
(#1)
marvinsytan's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 6,453
rebuy ended

opp loose caller

i bet small turn bet because i dont want to commit myself to the pot--is this good or it's obvious that im weak

i want to leave myself with at least 10bb's in case i lost this pot--is this good also to have a budget

 
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Thu Jan 05, 2012, 12:10 PM
(#2)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
I'm actually not a fan of the flop bet or the turn bet.

On the flop, you do get value from some draws (like in this case), but I think betting the flop is mostly just making the pot big without a solid hand. You're sort of c-bet bluffing the flop, and that's not something I like when your hand actually has value.

On the turn, you may be betting small to keep your stack healthy, but think about it like this: You're c-betting small because you want to leave yourself room to fold in case the other guy raises you. You're betting small because your hand isn't strong enough to commit to this pot. You're basically acting weak when you are weak, which is not a good idea. You're making it easy for the villain to correctly interpret your actions, and that's dangerous. I'd have checked back the turn here.

One more thing to add: I wouldn't open T9o from the button, but I'm a sin 'n go nit, so maybe it's a good open. I think that with your read that the SB is a loose caller though, it's safest to tighten your range and only open on him when you have a hand that flops better than T9o.
 
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Thu Jan 05, 2012, 07:00 PM
(#3)
ahar010's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 614
Hi Marvin,

Taking your read of the SB being a loose caller I don't think I open T9o here. We could be dominated alot even by a loose caller. My normal open is 2.5x which would obviously give us even more callers. But cheaper when things get hairy.

Once he does call and checks to us. We need to think again. Is this loose caller folding to cbets. Generally with a guy thats not folding I won't cbet often. But we have hit middle pair, so I don't think a cbet is terrible here, since the guy can call cbets with draws and nothing . I think the sizing is ok. We don't want to bet too small and weak but don't want to commit ourselves to this pot if he check raises or a 3 heart shows up on the turn.

When he checks the turn to us again I think a bet is ok if we have a read that this loose caller can call us with rubbish. The bet isn't too bad. Maybe a tiny bit more? 1300? Keeps a few weaker hands around possibly, still denies good odds for draws. Only thing I'm really scared of betting this small is allowing stronger T's to call. A small bet here keeps the 2nd barrel cheap. But I don't think it looks that weak. We look like we could almost be committed and almost inviting a call.

Once he calls the turn I think we have to shut down.

This is a tough hand I think. We would need good reads to make the right decisions here. Without the reads I think pass the weaker holding.




Quad Bracelet Winner

 
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Fri Jan 06, 2012, 01:59 PM
(#4)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,788
(Super-Moderator)
BronzeStar
Marvin,

In my eyes, there are two ways that you can play this one.... check it down when the opp checks to you, or the riskier way is to bet.

If you check it down, your hand does have some showdown value (2nd pair) and you don't have to risk your chips against a passive opponent.

If you bet, what I would do is to make sure that the bets follow a line that you would have with top pair or 2 pair or set, and that would be to bet enough that you price out the draws that the opp may have.
On the flop, there is a straight and a flush draw avaliable, so, if the opp has an OESD, they have 8 outs (32% equity), a flush draw has 9 outs (36% equity) and a combo draw if they have QJ hearts has 15 outs (60% equity). Due to this, you would need to make a bet above the highest one of these equities and for me I normally bet 2/3's or 3/4's pot here.
On the turn bet, you also need to price out the draws again. Worst case is 15 outs or 30% equity for the opp (more likely they would have 8 or 9 outs, for 16-18% equity). The bet that I would make here would therefore be in the 1/4 to 1/3 pot range.

If you bet less than this on the flop or turn, the opp has the pot odds to call your bet, so what you'll end up doing is to build a pot where the opp has a +EV call both times.

My choice would most likely be to check it down, but could vary, depening on my read of the opponent and if they will fold on the flop or turn to a larger value bet. If you want to leave yourself with a given level of chips at the end of the hand, as you stated, then I'm even more likely to check it down here.

John (JWK24)


Super-Moderator



6 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Fri Jan 06, 2012, 04:10 PM
(#5)
oriholic's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 751
BronzeStar
I like the button open with T9o. I think the raise size is way too big, but other than that it's fine. I would just minraise but around 600-650 would be fine. (Unless there is some thing where they always call minraises but will fold to a slightly larger bet, it really shouldn't make a difference, but this way you're keeping your investment small. Also the smaller the pot is compared to the stacks the more your skill advantage should manifest).

Now when you say this player is loose, what kind of loose? Loose preflop, fit-or-fold postflop? Loose preflop, super light calling postflop? I'm assuming not aggressive at all, which is good for you. But there are different ways to play it.

On the flop unless this is the kind of player who will call down three streets with 55 I prefer checking behind. This is a soaking wet flop that is almost guaranteed to hit your opponent in some way. So many gutshots and flush draws and broadway cards. With middle pair, do you really want to build a big pot on this kind of board? Even if he will call down light, how comfortable are you putting your whole stack in on the river with middle pair?

On the turn, if I check the flop I do like a bet. Your opponent has checked two streets so maybe he does have nothing or a weak draw. You can get a street of value here. As played after betting the flop I definitely check the turn. Your weak bet is just asking to be jammed over. Checking actually looks no weaker. Checking may look like you're giving up, but it can also look like you don't need to bluff since you actually have a hand. Maybe you can bluff-catch on the river (no not against this passive player).

On the river you have to check it back. He's calling you loose so there is no point in turning your showdown value hand into a bluff to get him off a K, a Q, JJ, or JT. If he has a busted draw you win anyway, and his range has a lot of busted draws and broadway cards.

One thing you need to think of when betting for value is how many streets do you think you can comfortably get value? A huge advantage of having the button is the ability to check back a street to keep a pot small or bet it to build the pot. This is called pot management or pot control.


4 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Fri Jan 06, 2012, 04:21 PM
(#6)
marvinsytan's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 6,453
is this wrong?

i just don't want to give away free cards to my opp in the blinds pos?

i just want to keep betting until i have reach my budget for that hand, i just want to keep on pressuring my opp
 
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Fri Jan 06, 2012, 04:50 PM
(#7)
Ov3rsight's Avatar
Since: Dec 2011
Posts: 340
imho:

if you think the blinds are loose, you know in advance they';ll most likely call your opening bet. So stealing the blinds isn't what you're gunning for. That means you have to know before you make the bet what you'll do if you get called. Or rather - when you get called. The c-bet isn't that bad I think, although again - if you read him as loose, you know he's going to cal the moment he hits that board in any way, be it bottom pair, or a draw, or with the King. When the turn comes and it's a complete blank, the moment you decide to bet the turn, I think is the moment you decide you're willing to play for stacks. In which case, why keep the bet small. You're giving the opponent almost 4-to-1 odds on a call with the turn 1k bet, which a loose opponent would most likely make with any draw....

Personally I don't like the "I wanna make sure I have at least 10BB left if I lose". I'd prolly check the turn and see what happens on the river.

If I do decide to bet the turn - 1k isn't gonna do it I think. I'd either bet at least half pot, about 2200 or so. That leaves me with just under 10BB, which is not good, plus there's no way I can fire an effective 3rd barrel on the river if I get called again. Ergo, I might even shove the turn here. Not sure that would have worked in this case with his open ender...

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